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Thread: A not so glorious 12th.

  1. #1
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    Default A not so glorious 12th.

    While one section of the community in the North of Ireland screams ''Erosion of culture!'' in relation to flags dispute and parading, attention needs to be drawn to another aspect of Battle of Boyne celebrations in particular the many illegal anti social bonfires that plague many towns and villages across the 6 Counties at 12th July each year.

    Annually, we see materials collected in the heart of communities were often drunken mobs descend to spew out their hate in what can accurately be compared to a form of witchcraft.

    Burning effigy, Nationalist/Republican flags and GAA emblems, rubber tyres,cursing the Pope and all other Roman Catholics and foreign Nationals all in the name of freedom of cultural expression and identity.

    The social impact is immense as is the environmental impact as i recall how this years 12th July brought a smog filled morning which gave way to pollutant rain in the afternoon.

    The fall out locally kicked off with a DUP member demanding condemnation for the theft of a Union flag declaring it as provocative.
    http://www.ballymoneytimes.co.uk/new...tive-1-6192197

    Here is the Sinn Fein response...
    Quote. He said: “The previous weekend we saw the burning of pictures of local election candidates, of Irish flags, of Dunloy and Loughgiel GAA banners at bonfires in North Antrim.

    “This is hate crime. It instils in young people that those on top of their local bonfires are figures to be hated and to be loathed. It is not harmless and can of course lead to those being singled out being targeted at a later date. It is my opinion that the police do not take this seriously enough. The placing of posters of young women such as Leanne Peacock and Patrice Hardy on top of a bonfire is appalling. The police should have made greater efforts to remove these. The excuse that the police are afraid to upset a number of teenagers guarding such displays is not good enough. In the absence of community leadership concerning such events the police still have a duty to uphold the law, in this case the law pertaining to the incitement of hatred.

    “The police have successfully secured convictions against those involved in incitement to hatred on social media. It is about time this was also done in regard to bonfires.

    “Equally appalling is the accommodation of the burning of tyres. The council, the NIEA and the police need to be working together collectively to secure their removal, not passing the buck. They can all take some responsibility for the appalling amount of tyres burned in North Antrim poisoning those living in those areas.

    “Hate crime from any quarter must be condemned outright. The attack on Ballycastle Orange Hall does not represent the people that live there. I will not be found wanting in attacking each and every hate crime in this area, it is a pity that other local MLAs will not do the same.” unquote.. http://www.ballymoneytimes.co.uk/new...imes-1-6191997

    I agree, all these fires do is initiate youth into a culture of intolerance and ignorant, blind sectarianism passed from one generation to another.

    It needs to be challenged at it's root.
    Last edited by Trow; 24-07-2014 at 12:23 AM.
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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    You know the irony is it makes some backward worldview to make the corrupt Irish State look community minded and the half corrupt Irish police force effective at prosecuting hate crime.

    Well done Belfast.

    What are they going to do if Britain's recent change of heart on Irish nationalism/republicanism leads to a gradual dumping of the Northern Irish State onto our books? They can't very well force British politicians to keep them in if Scotland does leave and that does provide a serious shift in policy a few years from now. Also I assume they've seen what Gardai do to protesters and marchers who don't know their place, to put it mildly?

    Also how come they can manage it in Meath but not Antrim without burning Irish flags and pictures of people? Are Southern Unionists less bigoted? Surely a strong minority of unionist people are sick of this, and that is why parties like Alliance have gained votes over the last few years to the point where themselves and SF dominate the city council?..maybe also some of them voted for the Irish left in Belfast as we saw PBP getting someone elected?

    SF are not backing down on hate crime and further welfare cuts it would seem so if the assembly does collapse, a slim possibility but very much possible, the British may just give up altogether because they will remember what happened last time they tried direct rule. Better to have a semi client neighbour state pick up the bill maybe for increased co-operation.
    Last edited by Apjp; 23-07-2014 at 06:58 PM.

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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Also how come they can manage it in Meath but not Antrim without burning Irish flags and pictures of people? Are Southern Unionists less bigoted?
    A tad more civilized i suggest. Again, look at this years, any years 12th celebrations in Rossnowlagh, Co. Donegal were Michael D. Higgins has been invited to next year. http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/d...rade-1-6161834

    Yet if a Donegal man showed up at an 11th night bonfire in the 6 Counties he'd end up battered and thrown onto it.

    When faced with criticism about bonfires the Orange Order distanced itself from them saying they are not responsible for them and do not organize them. So, are we to assume that Loyalist bonfire culture celebrating the victory at the Boyne is some sort of subculture?

    On the day they all turn out together either through band association or lining the streets to cheer. It's a coming together and it taints the whole parade.

    The Orange Order can't distance itself from bonfire culture, probably because like it's political membership they rely on it as a support base.
    Last edited by Trow; 24-07-2014 at 12:16 AM. Reason: spelling
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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Also how come they can manage it in Meath but not Antrim without burning Irish flags and pictures of people? Are Southern Unionists less bigoted?
    A tad more civilized i suggest. Again, look at this years, any years 12th celebrations in Rossnowlagh, Co. Donegal were Michael D. Higgins has been invited to next year. http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/d...rade-1-6161834

    Yet if a Donegal man showed up at an 11th night bonfire in the 6 Counties he'd end up battered and thrown onto it.

    When faced with criticism about bonfires the Orange Order distanced itself from them saying they are not responsible for them and do not organize them. So, are we to assume that Loyalist bonfire culture celebrating the victory at the Boyne is some sort of subculture?

    On the day, they all turn out together either through band association or lining the streets to cheer. It's a coming together and it taints the whole parade.

    The Orange Order can't distance itself from bonfire culture, probably because like it's political membership they rely on it as a support base.
    Last edited by Trow; 24-07-2014 at 12:34 AM.
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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Sounds like the 17th century mentality is just perpetual. Nazis is what they are. Nothing more. Nazi subculture I would suggest, just like in Phillip Kerr's excellent Berlin Noir.

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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Also how come they can manage it in Meath but not Antrim without burning Irish flags and pictures of people? Are Southern Unionists less bigoted?
    I presume you are talking about the little march they do at the Obelisk bridge? Many years ago they had manners put on them, this might have something to do with it. They come down every year (long before they were allowed to do that march)to collect water to dump on the roads back up north to walk over. Sometimes their expeditions did not go too well. None (that I have ever seen) are locals.

    (Shamefully in recent years they were allowed to buy up a fair bit of land down there by the Boyne.)

    The Orange Order were the world's first fascist organization.
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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    I presume you are talking about the little march they do at the Obelisk bridge? Many years ago they had manners put on them, this might have something to do with it. They come down every year (long before they were allowed to do that march)to collect water to dump on the roads back up north to walk over. Sometimes their expeditions did not go too well. None (that I have ever seen) are locals.

    (Shamefully in recent years they were allowed to buy up a fair bit of land down there by the Boyne.)

    The Orange Order were the world's first fascist organization.
    I remember a lot of hot air about them coming down to take over the Boyne valley during the tercentenary in 1990.

    We had a canoe trip planned for that week (a scorcher) and were more than depressed at the thought of them swaggering their way through the one break we'd get from them that summer.

    As it was, we paddled from Trim to Drogheda, passing the battlefield on the 12th and never saw a sign of as much as a fife let alone a drum.

    The great unionist bluff again.
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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5intheface View Post
    I remember a lot of hot air about them coming down to take over the Boyne valley during the tercentenary in 1990.

    We had a canoe trip planned for that week (a scorcher) and were more than depressed at the thought of them swaggering their way through the one break we'd get from them that summer.

    As it was, we paddled from Trim to Drogheda, passing the battlefield on the 12th and never saw a sign of as much as a fife let alone a drum.

    The great unionist bluff again.
    Sounds like a great trip. Such are times to treasure for ever .

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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5intheface View Post
    I remember a lot of hot air about them coming down to take over the Boyne valley during the tercentenary in 1990.

    We had a canoe trip planned for that week (a scorcher) and were more than depressed at the thought of them swaggering their way through the one break we'd get from them that summer.

    As it was, we paddled from Trim to Drogheda, passing the battlefield on the 12th and never saw a sign of as much as a fife let alone a drum.

    The great unionist bluff again.
    You might have missed them 5, the battle of the Boyne took place on 1st July [old calender] 11th July [new calender] with the actual decisive battle of the Williamite war in Ireland taking place at Aughrim, a year later.

    Members of the Orange Order and others,run tours of the battle sights and have done for years. The 12th day in the North is for parading, marching.... a ''turn out.''

    To have marched that South in some sort of re-enactment in the year 1990 would have wrecked havoc in around Drogheda, that's if their buses would have got past Dundalk.
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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    While one section of the community in the North of Ireland screams ''Erosion of culture!'' in relation to flags dispute and parading, attention needs to be drawn to another aspect of Battle of Boyne celebrations in particular the many illegal anti social bonfires that plague many towns and villages across the 6 Counties at 12th July each year.

    Annually, we see materials collected in the heart of communities were often drunken mobs descend to spew out their hate in what can accurately be compared to a form of witchcraft.

    Burning effigy, Nationalist/Republican flags and GAA emblems, rubber tyres,cursing the Pope and all other Roman Catholics and foreign Nationals all in the name of freedom of cultural expression and identity.

    The social impact is immense as is the environmental impact as i recall how this years 12th July brought a smog filled morning which gave way to pollutant rain in the afternoon.

    The fall out locally kicked off with a DUP member demanding condemnation for the theft of a Union flag declaring it as provocative.
    http://www.ballymoneytimes.co.uk/new...tive-1-6192197

    Here is the Sinn Fein response...
    Quote. He said: “The previous weekend we saw the burning of pictures of local election candidates, of Irish flags, of Dunloy and Loughgiel GAA banners at bonfires in North Antrim.

    “This is hate crime. It instils in young people that those on top of their local bonfires are figures to be hated and to be loathed. It is not harmless and can of course lead to those being singled out being targeted at a later date. It is my opinion that the police do not take this seriously enough. The placing of posters of young women such as Leanne Peacock and Patrice Hardy on top of a bonfire is appalling. The police should have made greater efforts to remove these. The excuse that the police are afraid to upset a number of teenagers guarding such displays is not good enough. In the absence of community leadership concerning such events the police still have a duty to uphold the law, in this case the law pertaining to the incitement of hatred.

    “The police have successfully secured convictions against those involved in incitement to hatred on social media. It is about time this was also done in regard to bonfires.

    “Equally appalling is the accommodation of the burning of tyres. The council, the NIEA and the police need to be working together collectively to secure their removal, not passing the buck. They can all take some responsibility for the appalling amount of tyres burned in North Antrim poisoning those living in those areas.

    “Hate crime from any quarter must be condemned outright. The attack on Ballycastle Orange Hall does not represent the people that live there. I will not be found wanting in attacking each and every hate crime in this area, it is a pity that other local MLAs will not do the same.” unquote.. http://www.ballymoneytimes.co.uk/new...imes-1-6191997

    I agree, all these fires do is initiate youth into a culture of intolerance and ignorant, blind sectarianism passed from one generation to another.

    It needs to be challenged at it's root.
    It does, but it won't be challenged by the State, which depends on social division to hold on to its power.

    There was some kind of official report on the post GFA period two years back that said NOTHING has been done by Governments to bring the "two communities" (aka people who live there) together.

    Plenty spent on fostering difference and separation - same with Haas: the whole emphasis is on things that divide people, nothing on what brings them together.

    No point in waiting for the State to deal with this - it has invested heavily in promoting division, from the "peace walls" down to the "cultural emblems".

    People on the ground have to do it themselves, not by focusing on battle lines, but by creating increasingly more common ground.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower;393900 in response to OP
    It does, but it won't be challenged by the State, which depends on social division to hold on to its power.

    There was some kind of official report on the post GFA period two years back that said NOTHING has been done by Governments to bring the "two communities" (aka people who live there) together.

    Plenty spent on fostering difference and separation - same with Haas: the whole emphasis is on things that divide people, nothing on what brings them together.

    No point in waiting for the State to deal with this - it has invested heavily in promoting division, from the "peace walls" down to the "cultural emblems".

    People on the ground have to do it themselves, not by focusing on battle lines, but by creating increasingly more common ground.
    Education.
    I suppose alot depends on what, how and who is doing the teaching. Learned behaviour caused by environment [one side of the peace wall or the other] remain a major stumbling block. While we can't physically tear these walls down in this time there must be a way of removing them psychologically.

    I see efforts on the ground to build bridges between communities. Not sure if it's all a PSNI front using quango's who all gather together annually for the photo shoot and pat each other on the back.

    While they do that, toxic fumes prevail on the 11th night, fire and brimstone speeches inspire a youth to sneak about in the dark to locate a fenian target [Catholic] to prove his loyalty and worth. Brainwashed into a culture of hate.

    You're right, people on the ground have to do it themselves and the first effort begins with ones self, every single individual.

    I want to see how things progress over the next year in relation to toxic fires.
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    Education.
    I suppose alot depends on what, how and who is doing the teaching. Learned behaviour caused by environment [one side of the peace wall or the other] remain a major stumbling block. While we can't physically tear these walls down in this time there must be a way of removing them psychologically.

    I see efforts on the ground to build bridges between communities. Not sure if it's all a PSNI front using quango's who all gather together annually for the photo shoot and pat each other on the back.

    While they do that, toxic fumes prevail on the 11th night, fire and brimstone speeches inspire a youth to sneak about in the dark to locate a fenian target [Catholic] to prove his loyalty and worth. Brainwashed into a culture of hate.

    You're right, people on the ground have to do it themselves and the first effort begins with ones self, every single individual.

    I want to see how things progress over the next year in relation to toxic fires.
    The 12th July and The Battle of the Boyne would be the perfect place to start.

    Unionism needs to actually look at how they interpret those events and apply their relevance to today. What the 17th century wars were fought over has no correlation to the narrow sectarianism and triumphalism preached by the Orange Order, albeit thinly veiled with fundamentalist Christian teaching.

    Similarly, nationalism and Republicanism have no reason to view the Williamite wars as a defeat of their tradition. To do so is as silly as picking some battle between the Uí Neill and the Corrigans of Carlow and getting hung up about the outcome. I'm not simply saying 'move on', there is a lot to be learnt from even older spats such as the 1640s but maybe it's the easy way that we can detach from 1690 that makes it all the more attractive to those who wish to perpetuate the hate.
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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Why can't they celebrate their culture in a more positive way? Bit of decent music - and what about some fire eaters, not necessarily called Paisley, dancers, jugglers and acrobats. Bit of colour.

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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Someone put a couple of tricolours on trees on an island in a lake near Bessbrook, County Armagh.

    Local reps including SF criticised their erection as provocative and called for them to be removed.

    This evening, one of Willie Frazer's 'FAIR' mates decided to swim out to take them down and replace them with Union flags.

    He drowned.

    For a piece of cloth.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28531001

    (not many details here as yet)
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    If dreams were lightning, thunder was desire, this whole place would have burned down, a long time ago.

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    Default Re: A not so glorious 12th.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5intheface View Post
    Someone put a couple of tricolours on trees on an island in a lake near Bessbrook, County Armagh.

    Local reps including SF criticised their erection as provocative and called for them to be removed.

    This evening, one of Willie Frazer's 'FAIR' mates decided to swim out to take them down and replace them with Union flags.

    He drowned.

    For a piece of cloth.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28531001

    (not many details here as yet)
    Tragic.
    Happiness is an inside job.

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