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Thread: Jerry Conlan, NAMA and Mount Carmel Hospital

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Jerry Conlan, NAMA and Mount Carmel Hospital

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    The phrase was used in reference to people who had their babies in Mount Carmel Hospital ... not with regard to the number of people who had private insurance. I would reiterate my experience ... ordinary people in Dublin used the Rotunda, the Coombe, or Holles Street. If the had some VHI they might get a semi private room. The well heeled availed of the Mount Carmel package.
    An absurdity again. In my family they used the hospital nearest for that last minute dash to the hospital. It is ridiculous to claim that it was Mt Carmel or the rest. The only one who used it lived close by. Absurd.
    Making a class war issue out of this closure is ridiculous. Could we not get on to some real class issues/Nama/ economic carry-on, especially where women are not derided?

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Jerry Conlan, NAMA and Mount Carmel Hospital

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectabilis View Post
    Big difference. As I ( (and Andrew 49) pointed out, the phrase 'well-heeled' has a horrible history in this country.

    How is 50.9% of the population rich.? Absurd. The 1% certainly, the 10%. Just today I spoke to a woman who has waited six months for a Dexa scan, having had private insurance always,up to last year. She is a part-time cleaner, her husband is a former bricklayer now on disability. How dare anyone dismiss them as well-heeled and therefore subject to contempt because they were among the 50.9% until this year.
    It was yourself who described the people who used Mount Carmel as rich or middling. Of course that group is not half the population or anything like it. It is a relatively very small proportion. Mount Carmel is priced at the top end and only a minority of women with health insurance are covered to use it.

    Nobody is dismissing people on low incomes as well-heeled or rich and nobody is subjecting them to contempt. The fact that Mount Carmel went down because people can't afford insurance any more was the main point in my post.

    Please dig George Colley's bones up if you would like to and give them a good kicking. I am not making any more of a gender issue out of this than is made by the fact that we are talking about a maternity hospital.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Jerry Conlan, NAMA and Mount Carmel Hospital

    Quote Originally Posted by PaddyJoe View Post
    'Well-heeled' isn't a gender specific phrase. Looks like George Collley did a hatchet job on it for some of us though. I'll go for 'well-shod' going forward.
    Don't you dare PJ, unless it is gender neutral

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Jerry Conlan, NAMA and Mount Carmel Hospital

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    It was yourself who described the people who used Mount Carmel as rich or middling. Of course that group is not half the population or anything like it. It is a relatively very small proportion. Mount Carmel is priced at the top end and only a minority of women with health insurance are covered to use it.

    Nobody is dismissing people on low incomes as well-heeled or rich and nobody is subjecting them to contempt. The fact that Mount Carmel went down because people can't afford insurance any more was the main point in my post.

    Please dig George Colley's bones up if you would like to and give them a good kicking. I am not making any more of a gender issue out of this than is made by the fact that we are talking about a maternity hospital.

    Not so. Your comments were based on 'wealth' that is the ability to pay for even a modicum of health insurance. It was an attack on women, specifically, who belonged to a majority.


    For starters, we should look at averages in relation to mean, median and mode. Then we will see what a majority is.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_mode.svg.png

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Jerry Conlan, NAMA and Mount Carmel Hospital

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectabilis View Post
    Not so. Your comments were based on 'wealth' that is the ability to pay for even a modicum of health insurance. It was an attack on women, specifically, who belonged to a majority.


    For starters, we should look at averages in relation to mean, median and mode. Then we will see what a majority is.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_mode.svg.png
    I have to disagree, and as I've already stated why more than once - i.e. women are the users of maternity hospitals and that is the reason why women were mentioned - will leave it at that.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Jerry Conlan, NAMA and Mount Carmel Hospital

    You may leave it at that, I don't. Women were mentioned in class/wealth terms in relation to the closure of a hospital. Disingenuity . An attempt to promote class warfare at the expense of a majority of women.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Jerry Conlan, NAMA and Mount Carmel Hospital

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectabilis View Post
    An absurdity again. In my family they used the hospital nearest for that last minute dash to the hospital. It is ridiculous to claim that it was Mt Carmel or the rest. The only one who used it lived close by. Absurd.
    Making a class war issue out of this closure is ridiculous. Could we not get on to some real class issues/Nama/ economic carry-on, especially where women are not derided?

    What is ridiculous is to suggest that Mt. Carmel was simply used by people who lived nearby. That is not the case. It was used by well off people from across Dublin and further beyond. Having a baby there was expensive. Even today in the Irish Times there is a woman saying that due to the closure she has lost something like 2,000 euros in personal down payments she had made (in addition to payments from her private insurance).

    It is even more absurd to describe stating a plain fact that the well heeled used Mount Carmel to have their kids as somehow being an attack on "the majority of women". There are indeed rich women and there are rich women who make use of certain facilities. To note this is not to "deride women".

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Jerry Conlan, NAMA and Mount Carmel Hospital

    There certainly are class issues in the closure of Mount Carmel. The class warfare is being enacted by state bodies and corporations in the defence of private profit. Mount Carmel's abrupt closure is a brutal example of how even people who consider themselves or who have been privileged and protected from the impacts of the economic crisis are coming under its steamroller effects of destruction. The protected in the globe now are less than 0.0011%, not 1% or 10%. We saw that last year with a Fine Gael Minister's death which was linked to financial stresses. For these people, the question I have is where will they go when under pressure - will they join with the real majority who are finding the present system has no tolerable future for them, or will they cling to increasingly more punitive and unequal political parties and movements, in the hopes that if there are enough cuts, and if they are focused on people poorer than themselves, this might see them through.
    If any Mount Carmel mothers want to lobby at the Dail for the hospital to be fully nationalised and run on an equal footing for all, I will happily join them.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Jerry Conlan, NAMA and Mount Carmel Hospital

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post

    The hospital has lost value because people are broke and can't pay for top of the range private health insurance and business has declined.
    James Reilly said today that the birth rate is falling too, to my surprise as reports generally have been that it has remained high.

    .
    I agree.

    I think part of the confusion in Reilly's comments arises from reporting on birth rates and fertility rates in an unclear way. Furthermore we get headlines comparing Irish rates to others as being much higher or the highest, whereas they have also been declining here.

    Birth rate is how many live births there were in an area per 1000 of the population in a year. and Fertility rate is the average number of children born to a woman over her life. The estimated fertility rate for women in 2013 is 2.01 children born to each woman while the estimate for the birth rate is 15.5 births/1,000 population .

    In the space of one month at the end of 2013 there were headlines from the main dailies saying
    Ireland has the highest fertility rate in the EU
    Iriland has highest birth rate in the EU
    Irish birth rate continuing to decline

    The number of births recorded at the hospital fell to 1,250 last year from about 2,000 a couple of years ago. At -37.5%, that is a lot more than the decline in the birth rate over those years. The ESRI gives a figure of -3.2 percent over two years.

    It is clear that the cost of insurance and general economic factors explain much of the change. As the birth rate is expected to decline further, the demand for maternity beds would not justify retaining the hospital. It does offer other services, and elderly patients currently there to relieve overcrowding will now return to the acute hospitals like Beaumont.


    The only winners here seem to be the Little Company of Mary Sisters who sold the hospital in 2006 for €65 million .




    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php...ry/inequality/

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Jerry Conlan, NAMA and Mount Carmel Hospital

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectabilis View Post
    I agree.

    I think part of the confusion in Reilly's comments arises from reporting on birth rates and fertility rates in an unclear way. Furthermore we get headlines comparing Irish rates to others as being much higher or the highest, whereas they have also been declining here.

    Birth rate is how many live births there were in an area per 1000 of the population in a year. and Fertility rate is the average number of children born to a woman over her life. The estimated fertility rate for women in 2013 is 2.01 children born to each woman while the estimate for the birth rate is 15.5 births/1,000 population .

    In the space of one month at the end of 2013 there were headlines from the main dailies saying
    Ireland has the highest fertility rate in the EU
    Iriland has highest birth rate in the EU
    Irish birth rate continuing to decline

    The number of births recorded at the hospital fell to 1,250 last year from about 2,000 a couple of years ago. At -37.5%, that is a lot more than the decline in the birth rate over those years. The ESRI gives a figure of -3.2 percent over two years.

    It is clear that the cost of insurance and general economic factors explain much of the change. As the birth rate is expected to decline further, the demand for maternity beds would not justify retaining the hospital. It does offer other services, and elderly patients currently there to relieve overcrowding will now return to the acute hospitals like Beaumont.


    The only winners here seem to be the Little Company of Mary Sisters who sold the hospital in 2006 for €65 million .




    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php...ry/inequality/

    That's interesting. It is a complex picture. I hope to goodness that Reilly is looking at figures for Dublin, not just national figures, as the two are likely to be at least as different as the property price figures.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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