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Thread: Are poor people stupid?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    It just takes one book or one good teacher to inspire an under-educated child.

    A Hollywood film on the life of Chopin set my 9 year daughter off on a career in music.

    Nobody is stupid. A lack of knowledge is not stupidity.
    We are all insane animals existing for a time on an obviously unfinished planet.
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  2. #32
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by MauriceColgan View Post
    It just takes one book or one good teacher to inspire an under-educated child.

    A Hollywood film on the life of Chopin set my 9 year daughter off on a career in music.

    Nobody is stupid. A lack of knowledge is not stupidity.
    +1 - unless there is physical damage to ones brain from accident, or malnutrition or smoking by the mother when pregnant, the basic tackle is the same for everyone.

    Using the brain in different ways can make it function differently too.

    The vast majority of people have the equivalent capacities.

    People can perform poorly at school for 1,001 different reasons, a lot of them income-related.

    Having even one teacher who believes in a child and gives it good teaching can make a lifechanging difference.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Found this article dated June 2013 under the heading ''Schools failing poor children'' by the Ofsted Chief Sir Michael Wilshaw.
    He calls for improved education for disadvantaged children ''unseen'' by current system.

    Quote.. "Today, many of the disadvantaged children performing least well in school can be found in leafy suburbs, market towns or seaside resorts. Often they are spread thinly, as an 'invisible minority' across areas that are relatively affluent," Wilshaw will say.

    "These poor, unseen children can be found in mediocre schools the length and breadth of our country. They are labelled, buried in lower sets, consigned as often as not to indifferent teaching.

    "They coast through education until – at the earliest opportunity – they sever their ties with it."

    Ofsted's latest report identifies deprived coastal towns and rural, less populous regions of the country, particularly down the east and south-east of England, as having been overlooked by national initiatives. It also found that a significant number of poorer children are being failed by schools in areas of higher income.

    And.. The speech marks 20 years since Ofsted published its first report on the educational barriers for the most disadvantaged children in seven deprived areas in England. "Our report shows that poverty of expectation is a greater problem than material poverty because we know of examples of schools serving areas of great disadvantage that are doing very well by their children," Wilshaw says.

    Sir Peter Lampl of the Sutton Trust said: "Sir Michael Wilshaw is absolutely right to focus on the poor attainment of low income pupils, particularly outside London, where results have been patchy. Good teaching across the board, strong leadership and effective use of data are all absolutely vital." unquote. http://www.theguardian.com/education...-poor-children
    Last edited by Trow; 14-12-2013 at 02:08 PM. Reason: further quote.
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  4. #34
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    Found this article dated June 2013 under the heading ''Schools failing poor children'' by the Ofsted Chief Sir Michael Wilshaw.
    He calls for improved education for disadvantaged children ''unseen'' by current system.

    Quote.. "Today, many of the disadvantaged children performing least well in school can be found in leafy suburbs, market towns or seaside resorts. Often they are spread thinly, as an 'invisible minority' across areas that are relatively affluent," Wilshaw will say.

    "These poor, unseen children can be found in mediocre schools the length and breadth of our country. They are labelled, buried in lower sets, consigned as often as not to indifferent teaching.

    "They coast through education until – at the earliest opportunity – they sever their ties with it."

    Ofsted's latest report identifies deprived coastal towns and rural, less populous regions of the country, particularly down the east and south-east of England, as having been overlooked by national initiatives. It also found that a significant number of poorer children are being failed by schools in areas of higher income.

    And.. The speech marks 20 years since Ofsted published its first report on the educational barriers for the most disadvantaged children in seven deprived areas in England. "Our report shows that poverty of expectation is a greater problem than material poverty because we know of examples of schools serving areas of great disadvantage that are doing very well by their children," Wilshaw says.

    Sir Peter Lampl of the Sutton Trust said: "Sir Michael Wilshaw is absolutely right to focus on the poor attainment of low income pupils, particularly outside London, where results have been patchy. Good teaching across the board, strong leadership and effective use of data are all absolutely vital." unquote. http://www.theguardian.com/education...-poor-children
    It is not just an inert system of schools "not noticing" disadvantaged children. The advantaged want to keep their advantage, and are prepared to pay for separate education.

    Children from lower income families are generally channelled into schools that are disadvantaged and in which the aspirations are not academic. Even something like the crazy cost of a school uniform jumper can deter people from sending their children into a school outside the vocational system. Fee paying schools are all about exclusivity and access in due course to the best third level schools and on to the highest earning occupations.


    Familiarity with the system, knowing the ropes, and high expectations, count for almost as much as money does.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Most of the contributions to this thread are irrelevant and beside the point. Three of my four kids have achieved Phds ....and I've always been poor ...... though not destitute. I never did the Leaving Cert ........ and I never assisted them in their studies. In fact I never noticed them studying all that hard.. it seemed to come natural to them. Because of my low wages and low income they got grants and had their fees paid to Trinity College ....... and although they didn't need to avail of it .....because we live in a DEIS area they could have availed of the TAP program ....... which allows children from this area to get into Trinity on reduced points.

    So much for the poor being disadvantaged when it comes to education. The greatest minds in the history of the world started out poor ..... and many never had proper formal education.

    Obviously my kids were poor ...... but not stupid. So what was different? They followed my example and tried to acquire accurate information ...... they observed what I was reading , Philosophy, Psychology, Politics etc, they observed my refusal to to be battery-fed by a corrupt media, including a corrupt left who ran along with the media because it was a handy sinecure for many "left-wing" journalists.

    Yeah, I always questioned orthodoxy whether from the right or the left. Being prepared to contradict bullshit from your colleagues as well as from your opponents is essential if you are to build a staple world view ........ and is a basic ingredient in the motivation to learn more and progress.

    I've no doubt my kids have picked up some of my less appealing habits also.
    Last edited by riposte; 14-12-2013 at 05:44 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    I cannot imagine why you would be apologizing to me, Apjp.
    our scuffles someway back. never mind.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by riposte View Post
    Most of the contributions to this thread are irrelevant and beside the point.
    Thanks; we like you too.

    Quote Originally Posted by riposte View Post
    Three of my four kids have achieved Phds ....and I've always been poor ...... though not destitute.
    Your anecdote is not supported by empirical studies.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    It's not too hard to understand the disparities of outcome. Within the pool of poor people are a certain cohort who have not placed a high value on education. Regardless of innate intelligence, the measuring of smartness or stupidity in the classroom is down to test results and the effort put in to get those results.

    If mommy and daddy place a high value on education and have the resources to push their children forward, well then they can turn a pig's ear into something of a silk purse results wise. That's no guarantee that the chid will end up with a superior intelligence, they'll just be a better educated version of a kid with the same base intelligence who hasn't been groomed for educational success.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by riposte View Post
    Most of the contributions to this thread are irrelevant and beside the point. Three of my four kids have achieved Phds ....and I've always been poor ...... though not destitute. I never did the Leaving Cert ........ and I never assisted them in their studies. In fact I never noticed them studying all that hard.. it seemed to come natural to them. Because of my low wages and low income they got grants and had their fees paid to Trinity College ....... and although they didn't need to avail of it .....because we live in a DEIS area they could have availed of the TAP program ....... which allows children from this area to get into Trinity on reduced points.

    So much for the poor being disadvantaged when it comes to education. The greatest minds in the history of the world started out poor ..... and many never had proper formal education.

    Obviously my kids were poor ...... but not stupid. So what was different? They followed my example and tried to acquire accurate information ...... they observed what I was reading , Philosophy, Psychology, Politics etc, they observed my refusal to to be battery-fed by a corrupt media, including a corrupt left who ran along with the media because it was a handy sinecure for many "left-wing" journalists.

    Yeah, I always questioned orthodoxy whether from the right or the left. Being prepared to contradict bullshit from your colleagues as well as from your opponents is essential if you are to build a staple world view ........ and is a basic ingredient in the motivation to learn more and progress.

    I've no doubt my kids have picked up some of my less appealing habits also.
    The most important learning happens at home. Best thing a parent can do for a child is to try and foster a love of reading. My parents bought me hundreds of books. When reading is not a chore everything comes easier.

    I still have nightmares of primary school where we had to share books (novels or whatever) and it taking the kid beside me what felt like ten years to read a page.

    The most important exam a child will ever do is the entrance exam to secondary school. If they are put into ordinary level classes with messers who just don't care they are at a major disadvantage.

    Well done to your children, you must be very proud.

    Unfortunately the grant system is messed up now, especially the postgrad. Unfortunately there are many young people who cannot attend college at all because their parents cannot afford it, and they don't qualify for grants (typically this is when one parent with a well paying job has to service a load of debt which was sustainable when both parents were employed).

    I don't think its fair that grants should depend on the financial status of ones parents.

    I want to do a postgrad but can't afford it yet, jobs are very hard to come by so I'm probably going to have to go abroad (China I'm thinking) for a couple of years to save up. I don't think I'd qualify for the grant and its unreasonable to ask my parents for more money.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    The most important learning happens at home. Best thing a parent can do for a child is to try and foster a love of reading. My parents bought me hundreds of books. When reading is not a chore everything comes easier.

    I still have nightmares of primary school where we had to share books (novels or whatever) and it taking the kid beside me what felt like ten years to read a page.

    The most important exam a child will ever do is the entrance exam to secondary school. If they are put into ordinary level classes with messers who just don't care they are at a major disadvantage.

    Well done to your children, you must be very proud.

    Unfortunately the grant system is messed up now, especially the postgrad. Unfortunately there are many young people who cannot attend college at all because their parents cannot afford it, and they don't qualify for grants (typically this is when one parent with a well paying job has to service a load of debt which was sustainable when both parents were employed).

    I don't think its fair that grants should depend on the financial status of ones parents.

    I want to do a postgrad but can't afford it yet, jobs are very hard to come by so I'm probably going to have to go abroad (China I'm thinking) for a couple of years to save up. I don't think I'd qualify for the grant and its unreasonable to ask my parents for more money.
    Oh dear .... i am of a very different breed as i hated reading as a child (the first book i ever enjoyed i was certainly over 15)

    reading may be important for literacy, being able to read gives you a leg up but as far as thinking the world's problems you may want to spend some more time in those math and physics and chemistry classes (and of course you need basic literacy levels to understand these other disciplines...but i never spent hours as a child in the library or reading books at home cos neither of my parents cared much for books)

    my father was hands on maybe would be tested as gifted today, but not for reading, used his words just as sparingly....

    anyway I have this discussion w my friends here in the US all the time cos they think if your kids are reading 5 levels above grade = they are smart ...pfff ...i stopped wasting my time

    i tell them, well i didnt learn proper english till i arrived in the US ~17 years ago and at the level i compete seems my english is good enough to outcompete y'all.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    The most important learning happens at home.
    Very much so.

    Completely agree.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Anyone who tries telling me that riposte and Trow are not exceptional is just going to get a lol from me
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Anyone who tries telling me that riposte and Trow are not exceptional is just going to get a lol from me
    Was it something i said?
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  14. #44
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    Oh dear .... i am of a very different breed as i hated reading as a child (the first book i ever enjoyed i was certainly over 15)

    reading may be important for literacy, being able to read gives you a leg up but as far as thinking the world's problems you may want to spend some more time in those math and physics and chemistry classes (and of course you need basic literacy levels to understand these other disciplines...but i never spent hours as a child in the library or reading books at home cos neither of my parents cared much for books)

    my father was hands on maybe would be tested as gifted today, but not for reading, used his words just as sparingly....

    anyway I have this discussion w my friends here in the US all the time cos they think if your kids are reading 5 levels above grade = they are smart ...pfff ...i stopped wasting my time

    i tell them, well i didnt learn proper english till i arrived in the US ~17 years ago and at the level i compete seems my english is good enough to outcompete y'all.
    Why don't you think that reading at an advanced level is a sign of intelligence in a young child?

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Are poor people stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    Why don't you think that reading at an advanced level is a sign of intelligence in a young child?
    not necessarily - in my view of the world - in most cases. Of course you have your outliers out there but those kids are on their own (they have a very specific internal clock)

    The vast majority kids reading 2-5 grades above level cos they have at least one committed parent (Obama for ex) pushing for early readership especially here in the US where sending your kids to a magnet public school (kids have to score >80% all disciplines and can compete for top spots at IV league schools w scholarships etc) implies kids need to be reading 2 levels above to get in the door (and keep it up throughout...)

    I actually know some people that were in this 'smart pack front runner' as kids that didnt turn out to be much later in life.

    In my opinion the worse thing EVER you can tell a kid is that he/she is smart. I've gotten close to kick people out my door when they volunteer that my girls are 'so smart'.
    Last edited by random new yorker; 14-12-2013 at 10:51 PM.

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