No septs please we're Irish

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Apart from the mild attempt at humour I have a rhetorical question which might provoke some interesting responses.

When I think back over what I know of Irish history there are two major external influences on Irish culture which have had such an impact that I think they may have actually derailed the development of local political thought altogether.

To be specific Irish society when it was free of external influences adhered to Brehon Law and to the Sept system of civil organisation.

To a certain extent I believe the Sept system still lies hidden under our apparent democracy. In the rural areas we have well-known charlatans whose career would be finished in some other European countries laying down the old 'I may be a devil but I'm your local devil' system- John O'Donoghue, Willie O'Dea, and Quinn Insurance's new bestest fwiends.

It seems very easy for charlatans to make out that 'them Dublin crowd' have it in for them and to play the old 'I'm being bullied' card.

Did we ever really develop a commitment to democracy- do we even understand that democracy calls for an understanding of national interest?

What do others think?


Here is wiki explanation of the word 'Sept' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sept

and a link for the Brehon Laws (interestingly someone has changed the title on wiki from 'Brehon Laws' to 'Early Irish Law'). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law

[Lapsedmethodist]

Very good, 'cept you left out Ned O'Keeffe!

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Hah- to be honest I think the entire question concerns the likes of O'Keefe and their cynical manipulation of the local interest.

It may well be an ancient curse this .... weren't the British invited in by a Leinster petty King in order to sort a local dispute?

Its been said by many before that the big empires (Roman, Norman, British) had one huge advantage over the Irish because the Irish were nauturally fragmented into Septs which distrusted one another.

And empires are built on the division of its enemies. I won't bang on about the other more insidious invasion but that too gained an advantage by playing one chieftain off against another.

We were never short of the education to understand this dilemma- the writings of the Roman and Greek political observers were open to us. Many of those who left at the flight of the Earls went on to fight for others in Europe, notably France where I believe one of Napoleon's generals was Irish (General Mahon?) so we were not short of people who understood the dangers of division as well.

From what I've read the 'celtic' tribes could always be depended on to row or fall out just at the wrong time- a bit like the Netherlands before a world cup final?

And we do have a habit of looking for the foreign devil to blame when things go wrong- the current shower with their laughable theory it was all Lehman's fault. Or that oaf O'Keefe with his stupid comments about Elderfield the financial regulator being English.

There are no songs in pubs perhaps about the real enemy ... the enemy within?

[Sidewinder]

There's a lot to this alright Con.

The two external invasions had far deeper psychological and cultural consequences than most people are willing to think about.

Our natural development was aborted and derailed into an endless cycle of lunacy for the last 1000 years. Yet the roots run deep and the old system is still there, half-developed, unable to progress and devlop naturally.

And so there really is only a very very weak sense of nationalism in this country. The local loyalty to the sept/tuath is still remarkably strong. The "national interest" barely exists in most people's heads. Despite all the guff and sentimentality, I think any close reading of our tragic history shows the same thing again and again - some narrow sectional interest selling out everyone else for their own gain. We're not really a nation, we're a loose and constantly squabbling pack of mercenary tribes.

We were starting to become a cohesive nation 1000 years ago perhaps, slowly, but then MacMurrough invited in some Cambro-Norman mercenaries to sort out a local dispute, and our natural path of development became a very un-natural path of development.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Sounds like we're walking down the same lane there alright Sidewinder. Its a sobering thought but it would explain the lipservice the Dail crowd give to democracy.

Look at Dermot Ahern, the man that couldn't sleep at night for fear someone would raise a technical constitutional lawyers point about blasphemy and all of a sudden the constitution is obliged to sprout a solution.

Try arguing that Ministerial salaries or Judge's remuneration be looked at and suddenly the constitution is an immovable rock on the road.

I've a notion that De Valera and co adopted all the language of a democratic republic while ensuring it became nothing of the sort. And now De Valera's grandkids are the ones staring into the lights while frantically trying to keep up the pretence.

One dead giveway about Ireland's tribal past breaking through the thin veneer of French polished republican thought- how many kids, nieces, nephews, grandsons, granddaughters of this narrow crew of inheritors are now in positions of authority not because of what they know but because of WHO they know?

Mary Coughlan wouldn't have even been a decent social worker in another country. If Biffo keels over into his Guinness tomorrow then she's actually the political leader of the country.

Definitely a sobering thought.

[Fraxinus]

Sounds like we're walking down the same lane there alright Sidewinder. Its a sobering thought but it would explain the lipservice the Dail crowd give to democracy.

Look at Dermot Ahern, the man that couldn't sleep at night for fear someone would raise a technical constitutional lawyers point about blasphemy and all of a sudden the constitution is obliged to sprout a solution.

Try arguing that Ministerial salaries or Judge's remuneration be looked at and suddenly the constitution is an immovable rock on the road.

I've a notion that De Valera and co adopted all the language of a democratic republic while ensuring it became nothing of the sort. And now De Valera's grandkids are the ones staring into the lights while frantically trying to keep up the pretence.

One dead giveway about Ireland's tribal past breaking through the thin veneer of French polished republican thought- how many kids, nieces, nephews, grandsons, granddaughters of this narrow crew of inheritors are now in positions of authority not because of what they know but because of WHO they know?

Mary Coughlan wouldn't have even been a decent social worker in another country. If Biffo keels over into his Guinness tomorrow then she's actually the political leader of the country.

Definitely a sobering thought.

A lot of what ya say is interesting and makes sense, if only there was some academic study into it. But the heritable profession is by no means exclusive to politics, look at the army, gardaí, doctors, vets, lawyers, builders, etc with family ties.

[Lapsedmethodist]

A lot of what ya say is interesting and makes sense, if only there was some academic study into it. But the heritable profession is by no means exclusive to politics, look at the army, gardaí, doctors, vets, lawyers, builders, etc with family ties.

In a country with a small population how could this be avoided ? And all this misses the point really. If there's no concept of "society " then there's nothing you can do to prevent people falling back on what they know....family. And historically society to the Irish meant foreign rule. You're not going to shake that off easily, although it seems to have begun; firstly with the regulator, now with Daly of NAMA who was impressive today on Drivetime. There would seem to be a cadre of hardcases out there who have hated the FF/Developer nexus and who are now in their element.

[Graham]

In a country with a small population how could this be avoided ? And all this misses the point really. If there's no concept of "society " then there's nothing you can do to prevent people falling back on what they know....family. And historically society to the Irish meant foreign rule. You're not going to shake that off easily, although it seems to have begun; firstly with the regulator, now with Daly of NAMA who was impressive today on Drivetime. There would seem to be a cadre of hardcases out there who have hated the FF/Developer nexus and who are now in their element.

Would that be the same regulator recently referred to as "a foreigner trying to run our country" (or words to that effect)?

BTW, I'm a lapsed Methodist too - I wonder if we know each other?

[Lapsedmethodist]

Would that be the same regulator recently referred to as "a foreigner trying to run our country" (or words to that effect)?

BTW, I'm a lapsed Methodist too - I wonder if we know each other?

1) Dat's him.
2) Not unless yer frum tha North like!

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Thats a fair point alright- that exchange between Ned O'Keefe and the regulator who hs been roundly defended in all corners might just be one of those little ripples that expand across the cultural pond.

Its about time that sort of nonsense was dropped as it does us little credit...

[Derelict]

A lot of what ya say is interesting and makes sense, if only there was some academic study into it. But the heritable profession is by no means exclusive to politics, look at the army, gardaí, doctors, vets, lawyers, builders, etc with family ties.

Put simply, there is no social mobility here.

I'd put a lot of it down to the poor quality of most schools.

Yes, there are 'good' schools, but people can only say that such-and-such-a-school is a 'good school' because that school is so much better than other nearby school.