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Thread: Crisis in the Ukraine

  1. #11821
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Basically your premise is that they were one nation by choice and no massacres or famines happened. Please enlighten me how nobody was ever killed or repressed and how this was a glorious period in human history.

    USSR post 1956 was not that bad a country but pre world war two these things did happen, and nobody in Ukrainę had a choice in the matter when it came to who governed them, who took their food away and how their lives were run.

    The same goes for the Russian people AS their revolutionaries were killed off and they were repressed and often killed or imprisoned. The issue is State starvation of one ethnic group did happen and it had consequences for Poles and Ukrainian s alike, which is why your lies are so immoral.
    Last edited by Apjp; 11-05-2019 at 09:56 PM.

  2. #11822
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    you stated;



    Which is complete nonsense, of course.

    The Soviet Union was not a separate country from the Ukraine at the time that "millions" of Ukrainians are asserted to have starved to death. The Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. Furthermore, the Ukraine was not run by Russians but by the Communist Party of the Ukraine whose ranks were filled with Ukrainians. Its bureaucracy was not filled by Russians but Ukrainians. Yes, general policy would have been decided centrally for all of the Soviet Union but this was not done by "Russians". Stalin, for example, whom fascists love to point the finger at as being responsible for "millions of deaths" in the Ukraine was a Georgian. Ukrainian fascists are so dumb, however, they do not realise this. So Russia was responsible and Stalin was the principal person responsible.

    It is also a fact that, leaving aside entirely the arguments about numbers and causes, that people in the Ukraine were not the only ones in the Soviet Union to die of hunger in this period. Some people called Russians, among others,also died.

    So having posted some utter drivel, typical of Ukrainian fascists, designed to whip up hatred of Russia and Russians you than have the brass neck to come back and try to lecture me on history. Beyond pathetic.
    And it is not an assertion. It is historical fact. What about the Holocaust or the Cambodian Killing fields? Should we check in with you before stating other historical facts to make sure the merę existence of a fsct cannot be exploited by some bogeyman somewhere?

    Is there any other famine or mass murder in history I should forget about?

  3. #11823
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Yet in 2005 50% of Ukrainians regretted the dissolution of the USSR. It was presumably events since then including the division of the country and the retrieval of Crimea by Russia that accounts for the 15% shift in view.

    I spent a fruitless few hours once trying to justify history in terms of how many millions died and when. It was always possible to counterbalance one figure with another. Russia too lost millions to famine as a regular event before the revolution and under massive pressure from hostile external powers thereafter. Once things settled down to peace, post WW2, miraculously everyone got to eat.

    More figs. - 3.9 million are estimated to have died prematurely in Russia due to the regime imposed on it by the World Bank after the end of the Soviet state. 25 million died in Russia in WW2 as a result of the Nazi invasion.

    Yes, all kinds of things might have been done differently, but look at the history of Russia - Military collapse in WW1, which was ended by revolution, Civil war for years, with the Whites backed by British troops amongst others and the State was a feudal state with regular famine before that. Just getting on their feet, and along comes WW2. Maybe I mentioned on another thread discussions recently with a v. surprising source - Lutheran religious people from E. Germany - who when I asked were they not happy with reunification said that it was a disaster for East Germany. Jobs and manufacture went, and the whole way people conducted their lives as a community was wiped out.
    There is a difference though between a reasonable analysis like this and denying millions of people were killed for vicious heartless reason, be they Ukrainians, Russians or anybody else.

    I can understand a defence of post war USSR. I cannot understand how anyone can twist the truth like the guy above, just cos it might be exploited at some point by someone in response to the current situation.

    Denying famine ans genocidal politics is actual stupidity or something worse.

  4. #11824
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post


    Ireland was technically part of the UK for 121 years and Irish civil servants carried out British rule. Using your logic, no famine happened there either and millions of Irish people were not starved or repressed.
    The idiocy of this analogy is breathtaking.

    You would have us believe that during the 1930's the land in the Ukraine was owned by a Russian aristocracy and agricultural production organised around their profit requirements.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  5. #11825
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    The idiocy of this analogy is breathtaking.

    You would have us believe that during the 1930's the land in the Ukraine was owned by a Russian aristocracy and agricultural production organised around their profit requirements.
    Land was collectivised and Stalin stole the peoples food.

    You are taking that out of context. Why not stick to denying genocide.

  6. #11826
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Land was collectivised and Stalin stole the peoples food.
    Did he eat it all?
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  7. #11827
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post

    You are taking that out of context. Why not stick to denying genocide.
    "Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part."

    To test your assertion of Genocide in the Ukraine in the time of the Soviet Union I pulled out some demographic figures.



    Population between WWI and WWII

    Year/ Average pop/ Live births/ Death/ Natural change

    1924 / 27,400 / 1,150,577 / 484,880 / 665,697
    1925 / 28,000 / 1,185,028 / 531,819 / 653,209
    1926 / 28,700 / 1,207,907 / 518,656 / 689,251
    1927 / 29,589 / 1,184,400 / 522,600 / 661,700
    1928 / 30,251 / 1,139,300 / 495,700 / 643,600
    1929 / 30,894 / 1,081,000 / 538,700 / 542,300
    1930 / 31,436 / 1,023,000 / 578,100 / 484,900
    1931 / 31,882 / 0,975,300 / 514,700 / 460,600
    1932 / 32,342 / 0,782,000 / 668,200 / 113,800
    1933 / 32,456 / 0,564,000 / 2,104,000 / -1,540,000
    1934 / 30,916 / 0,551,500 / 462,000 / 089,500
    1935 / 31,006 / 0,759,100 / 341,900 / 417,200
    1936 / 31,423 / 0,893,100 / 359,500 / 533,500
    1937 / 31,957 / 1,214,000 / 428,400 / 785,600
    1938 / 32,742 / 1,113,500 / 430,800 / 682,600
    1939 / 33,425 / 1,073,500 / 412,600 / 660,900

    We can clearly see from the deaths column that there was a serious problem starting in 1932 and coming to a head in 1933. Leaving aside for a moment the cause of this we can also see that by 1934 (with agriculture still collectivised) it was overcome. Deaths are less than throughout the 1920s.

    By 1937, within 5 years of the famine, the population of the Ukraine had exceeded that of 1932 (Over 150 years later we are still not at the pre famine population in Ireland). By the 1980s, despite the horrendous loss of life in the second world war, it had exceeded 50 million (though perhaps some 7 million was added through territorial expansion). And by that time,of course, the Ukrainian people were enjoying a standard of living and quality of life unprecedented in their history.

    But despite the almost constant population growth you will have some imbeciles who have imbibed Nazi propaganda come along and assert that in the period of the Soviet Union there was an attempt by "Russians" to wipe out the Ukrainian people. It's beyond pathetic.
    Last edited by Sam Lord; 13-05-2019 at 11:37 PM.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  8. #11828
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Did he eat it all?
    The Army and NKVD did.
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  9. #11829
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Land was collectivised and Stalin stole the peoples food.

    You are taking that out of context. Why not stick to denying genocide.
    There is evidence that the 1932 harvest was considerably lower than either the Soviet state or historians have assumed.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/2500600...n_tab_contents

    Russians in adjacent areas were starving in 1932 too, which would tend to bear this out. All kinds of mistakes and **** ups, yes: genocide, no.

    Between 3 and 4 million people died in the Ukraine family - 14 million people are at risk of famine in the Yemen right now. This is not a food shortage - it is a money / income shortage.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 31-05-2019 at 07:54 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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