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Thread: Crisis in the Ukraine

  1. #11806
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Suspect you'll only see video that Russia decides to release. They knew in advance of what was about to happen. Seems Ukraine has no or little video.
    Yesterday Nikki Haley made it clear that the US would play 2nd fiddle to the EU on this issue.



    The Ukraine crisis presents an important new test for President Trump, Axios' Jonathan Swan reports:

    • At the UN Security Council yesterday, U.S. ambassador Nikki Haley called out Russia for Sunday's naval confrontation: "Impeding Ukraine’s lawful transit ... is a violation under international law. It is an arrogant act that the international community must condemn and will never accept."
    • But Trump said: "We do not like what's happening, either way."
    • And shortly after taking office, he seemed to side with Russia in comments on Ukraine.

    Why it matters ... The N.Y. Times says there's a risk of a wider war:

    • "Ukraine’s president put his nation on a war footing with Russia ... as tensions over a shared waterway escalated into a crisis that dragged in NATO and the United Nations."

    The big question: Will Trump say anything about Russia taking its aggression even further? Or will he normalize this rogue behavior?

    • The pressure from the national security establishment will be to call out Russia, while Trump's own instincts tend to favor Putin.

    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

  2. #11807
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quid pro quo for Yemen ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  3. #11808
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Quid pro quo for Yemen ?
    Doubt it. Countries generally like to keep these issues compartmentalized, otherwise it becomes too confusing to figure out who's retaliating for what.
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

  4. #11809
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Presidential Elections Second Round and one corrupt politician / clown will be replaced by another.

    Scroll right down to the end of this NYT report for the sting in the tale - that Zelensky the 'clean candidate' is himself a bought man owned by an oligarch.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/w...-election.html
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  5. #11810
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Its safe to say he cannot be any worse for the Ukrainian economy or peace process or EU negotiations than his predecessor. Aren't a few Irish politicians somewhat bought too? If it speeds up a peace deal and EU negocjacji in any way then great. And yes, joining the EEA or eventually the EU would be good for Ukrainę's economy. An open border with the EU would immediately provide an economic boost. Business just aint very practical when a 70 minute bus ride from Lublin-Lwów takes 6 hours.

  6. #11811
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    While Socks Varadkar is taking his orders from Dinny, Big Phil, Goodman and Co. , I think we should be somewhat less fussy about these things. Most Ukrainians I know Herę voted in their local consulates. Seems more democratic than our own amateurish attempts at including emigrants in the voting process.

  7. #11812
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Its safe to say he cannot be any worse for the Ukrainian economy or peace process or EU negotiations than his predecessor. Aren't a few Irish politicians somewhat bought too? If it speeds up a peace deal and EU negocjacji in any way then great. And yes, joining the EEA or eventually the EU would be good for Ukrainę's economy. An open border with the EU would immediately provide an economic boost. Business just aint very practical when a 70 minute bus ride from Lublin-Lwów takes 6 hours.
    This all remains to be seen, but yes, Ukraine in the EU would be better than it having its strings pulled by the US, whose role is entirely malign. But with a war still going on there, entry to the EU is not going to happen.

    I've been reading quite a bit about the partition of Ireland recently and was reminded of the strategy, used extensively by Russia/Putin of taking a bite out of a State where there is some kind of local ethnic or other support base and holding on to it for military purposes. A carnival of reaction seems to be the usual result.

    Interesting to see that Ukraine is virtually the only part of the former participant that doesn't regret that dissolution of the USSR.

    Legacy

    In Armenia, 12% of respondents said the USSR collapse did good, while 66% said it did harm. In Kyrgyzstan, 16% of respondents said the collapse of the USSR did good, while 61% said it did harm.[124] Ever since the collapse of the USSR, annual polling by the Levada Center has shown that over 50 percent of Russia's population regretted its collapse, with the only exception to this being in 2012. A 2018 Levada Center poll showed that 66% of Russians lamented the fall of the Soviet Union.[125] According to a 2014 poll, 57 percent of citizens of Russia regretted the collapse of the Soviet Union, while 30 percent said they did not. Elderly people tended to be more nostalgic than younger Russians.[126] 50% of respondents in Ukraine in a similar poll held in February 2005 stated they regret the disintegration of the Soviet Union.[127] However, a similar poll conducted in 2016 showed only 35% Ukrainians regretting the Soviet Union collapse and 50% not regretting this.[128]On 25 January 2016, Russian President Vladimir Putin blamed Vladimir Lenin and his advocating for the individual republics' right to political secession for the breakup of the Soviet Union.[129]
    wiki,
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  8. #11813
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    This all remains to be seen, but yes, Ukraine in the EU would be better than it having its strings pulled by the US, whose role is entirely malign. But with a war still going on there, entry to the EU is not going to happen.

    I've been reading quite a bit about the partition of Ireland recently and was reminded of the strategy, used extensively by Russia/Putin of taking a bite out of a State where there is some kind of local ethnic or other support base and holding on to it for military purposes. A carnival of reaction seems to be the usual result.

    Interesting to see that Ukraine is virtually the only part of the former participant that doesn't regret that dissolution of the USSR.

    Legacy

    In Armenia, 12% of respondents said the USSR collapse did good, while 66% said it did harm. In Kyrgyzstan, 16% of respondents said the collapse of the USSR did good, while 61% said it did harm.[124] Ever since the collapse of the USSR, annual polling by the Levada Center has shown that over 50 percent of Russia's population regretted its collapse, with the only exception to this being in 2012. A 2018 Levada Center poll showed that 66% of Russians lamented the fall of the Soviet Union.[125] According to a 2014 poll, 57 percent of citizens of Russia regretted the collapse of the Soviet Union, while 30 percent said they did not. Elderly people tended to be more nostalgic than younger Russians.[126] 50% of respondents in Ukraine in a similar poll held in February 2005 stated they regret the disintegration of the Soviet Union.[127] However, a similar poll conducted in 2016 showed only 35% Ukrainians regretting the Soviet Union collapse and 50% not regretting this.[128]On 25 January 2016, Russian President Vladimir Putin blamed Vladimir Lenin and his advocating for the individual republics' right to political secession for the breakup of the Soviet Union.[129]
    wiki,

    Gee I wonder why the Ukrainian people do not like the lecący of another country that starved millions of Ukrainians to death.

    I spent 4 months there in Kiev and briefly in Lwów. I did not meet any crazy supporter of Bandera in response to my use of Polish for communication.

    Wanting to be an independent nation is not a Carnival of reaction of itself. In facto, in retrospect, aside from the 2014-15 period, the Ukrainian public have behaved with great restraint.

  9. #11814
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Legacy*

  10. #11815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Gee I wonder why the Ukrainian people do not like the lecący of another country that starved millions of Ukrainians to death.

    I spent 4 months there in Kiev and briefly in Lwów. I did not meet any crazy supporter of Bandera in response to my use of Polish for communication.
    Strange that you absorbed their propaganda in that case.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  11. #11816
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Strange that you absorbed their propaganda in that case.
    Conservative estimates put the 1930s famine at 3.9 million dead, with the only question being whether it was deliberate Soviet Policy or a consequence of same.


    You may as well deny the famine happened in Ireland. Even Khrushchev denounced Stalins legacy.

    I cannot help you if you are brainwashed. The USSR also killed tens of thousands of Polish soldiers cos Stalin did not forgive Poland for the Soviet humiliation in 1920. Russia also acknowledged that in the early 90s and it acknowledged the Ukrainian famine in 2003.

    The Ukrainian famine had horrific consequences such as the Ukrainian massacre of 100 thousand plus Poles in the 1940s by extreme nationalists.

    All of these things happened and no modern European governments, including the Russian State, dispute same.

    But you know better of course.

  12. #11817
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Gee I wonder why the Ukrainian people do not like the lecący of another country that starved millions of Ukrainians to death.

    I spent 4 months there in Kiev and briefly in Lwów. I did not meet any crazy supporter of Bandera in response to my use of Polish for communication.

    Wanting to be an independent nation is not a Carnival of reaction of itself. In facto, in retrospect, aside from the 2014-15 period, the Ukrainian public have behaved with great restraint.
    The Carnival of Reaction comes about from the dismembering / splitting up of an independent nation at the behest of outside bigger powers acting in their own perceived self interest.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  13. #11818
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Conservative estimates put the 1930s famine at 3.9 million dead, with the only question being whether it was deliberate Soviet Policy or a consequence of same.


    You may as well deny the famine happened in Ireland. Even Khrushchev denounced Stalins legacy.

    I cannot help you if you are brainwashed. The USSR also killed tens of thousands of Polish soldiers cos Stalin did not forgive Poland for the Soviet humiliation in 1920. Russia also acknowledged that in the early 90s and it acknowledged the Ukrainian famine in 2003.

    The Ukrainian famine had horrific consequences such as the Ukrainian massacre of 100 thousand plus Poles in the 1940s by extreme nationalists.

    All of these things happened and no modern European governments, including the Russian State, dispute same.

    But you know better of course.
    Yet in 2005 50% of Ukrainians regretted the dissolution of the USSR. It was presumably events since then including the division of the country and the retrieval of Crimea by Russia that accounts for the 15% shift in view.

    I spent a fruitless few hours once trying to justify history in terms of how many millions died and when. It was always possible to counterbalance one figure with another. Russia too lost millions to famine as a regular event before the revolution and under massive pressure from hostile external powers thereafter. Once things settled down to peace, post WW2, miraculously everyone got to eat.

    More figs. - 3.9 million are estimated to have died prematurely in Russia due to the regime imposed on it by the World Bank after the end of the Soviet state. 25 million died in Russia in WW2 as a result of the Nazi invasion.

    Yes, all kinds of things might have been done differently, but look at the history of Russia - Military collapse in WW1, which was ended by revolution, Civil war for years, with the Whites backed by British troops amongst others and the State was a feudal state with regular famine before that. Just getting on their feet, and along comes WW2. Maybe I mentioned on another thread discussions recently with a v. surprising source - Lutheran religious people from E. Germany - who when I asked were they not happy with reunification said that it was a disaster for East Germany. Jobs and manufacture went, and the whole way people conducted their lives as a community was wiped out.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  14. #11819
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post

    But you know better of course.
    you stated;

    Quote Originally Posted by Apj
    Gee I wonder why the Ukrainian people do not like the legacy of another country that starved millions of Ukrainians to death
    Which is complete nonsense, of course.

    The Soviet Union was not a separate country from the Ukraine at the time that "millions" of Ukrainians are asserted to have starved to death. The Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. Furthermore, the Ukraine was not run by Russians but by the Communist Party of the Ukraine whose ranks were filled with Ukrainians. Its bureaucracy was not filled by Russians but Ukrainians. Yes, general policy would have been decided centrally for all of the Soviet Union but this was not done by "Russians". Stalin, for example, whom fascists love to point the finger at as being responsible for "millions of deaths" in the Ukraine was a Georgian. Ukrainian fascists are so dumb, however, they do not realise this. So Russia was responsible and Stalin was the principal person responsible.

    It is also a fact that, leaving aside entirely the arguments about numbers and causes, that people in the Ukraine were not the only ones in the Soviet Union to die of hunger in this period. Some people called Russians, among others,also died.

    So having posted some utter drivel, typical of Ukrainian fascists, designed to whip up hatred of Russia and Russians you than have the brass neck to come back and try to lecture me on history. Beyond pathetic.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  15. #11820
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    You are the one who is skeptical that millions of Ukrainians starved in the 1930s.

    If you cannot admit a simple historical fact then I suppose we are all fascists in your view.

    Your hero Stalin killed at least 600 thousand Russians, a conservative estimate admitted by Khrushchev in his historical 1956 secret speech leaked to Polish and Western intelligence by his administration. The USSR killed millions of Ukrainians in the 1930s a long with probably more than the 600 thousand Russians later admitted to having been killed at the behest of Comrade Stalin. The Katyń massacre in the 1940s showed they had no love for Poles either.

    The Ukrainian people never got a say in whether they wanted to be part of the USSR or not. As you probably see all elections as fascistic though, cos any questioning of your own strange worldview of historyk is bourgeois, right?

    Ireland was technically part of the UK for 121 years and Irish civil servants carried out British rule. Using your logic, no famine happened there either and millions of Irish people were not starved or repressed.

    Any reasonable person would say what happened to Ukrainian people before world war two was Shocking and wrong.

    Do you think that country is wrong to want to be a separate State?

    Questioning facts like actual war crimes and human misery that killed a lot of people is really immoral and unhinged behaviour in my experience. It is also very rare and probably not a very good sign of morał character. These facts inconvenience your own interpretation of the first 30 plus years of the USSRs rule. The while world knows this, but you call it Ukrainian fascistic propaganda.


    Go on though, you know better. The while world is wrong about the Ukrainian famine, the Stalinist Purges and the Katyń massacre and you are right.

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