Page 787 of 787 FirstFirst ... 287687737777785786787
Results 11,791 to 11,800 of 11800

Thread: Crisis in the Ukraine

  1. #11791
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,343

    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    @amh - the fall of the USSR and Trotskyism - interesting topic perhaps worth its own thread. So much discussion of Eurocommunism and the collapse of the CPS but I don't recall reading anything substantial about the consequences in the various Trotskyist strands.

    This is a very hostile account of the Spartacist involvement in Russia but I'm sure has a dose of truth in it (leaving aside the murder of Martha Phillips, about which I haven't a clue). Trotskyism was and is beset with various forms of cultism and by sectarianism behind which the most outrageous political compromises were made in many of said sects. The reasons for this need to be explored.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedM...t_murdered_in/
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  2. #11792
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,931

    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    @amh - the fall of the USSR and Trotskyism - interesting topic perhaps worth its own thread. So much discussion of Eurocommunism and the collapse of the CPS but I don't recall reading anything substantial about the consequences in the various Trotskyist strands.

    This is a very hostile account of the Spartacist involvement in Russia but I'm sure has a dose of truth in it (leaving aside the murder of Martha Phillips, about which I haven't a clue). Trotskyism was and is beset with various forms of cultism and by sectarianism behind which the most outrageous political compromises were made in many of said sects. The reasons for this need to be explored.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedM...t_murdered_in/
    Hostile indeed, and much of it I know is false, as I was a member of the organization back in the '70s. There were no 70 hour work weeks. That is only possible if you are a Wall Street trader or a Silicon Valley cubicle geek, living off the fat of the land to maintain your sanity. Except during an actual revolution or something, that is unsustainable unless you are rich.

    That is why the Healyites, the largest English Trotskyist organization back in the '70, who really did exactly that pretty much, exploded into a score of pieces which all disappeared. The only survivors, the SEP and WSWS of David North, don't even publish a newspaper, much less hawk it on street corners. And that is why the Spartacists are still around, as they just don't do that kind of thing.

    It's quite true, when I was a member there was a lot of work and a serious pledge schedule, demonstrating to me that they were actually the real thing not phonies. But nothing like what this guy describes. He really gives the game away when he describes the truly excellent internal education programs (confession, in the '70s I was the education director of my local for a couple years) as political "education." I suppose he's trying to imply they were some sort of Mao style brainwashings, instead they were serious continual study of the Marxist classics and basic documents of the Trotskyist movement-including basic Spartacist documents of course.

    That Robertson had to approve every word is beyond ridiculous. Would have paralyzed the organization and made a biweekly newspaper impossible. For 30 years the WV editor was Jan Norden, who had had disagreements on various minor issues with other leaders from time to time almost from the beginning--which only turned major in the aftermath of the demoralizing Soviet collapse. And so did other "top leaders" have disagreements with Robertson and each other, almost all still with the SL to this day.

    That the death of Martha Phillips was an "inside job" is totally insane. She was very well loved in and around the organization, and highly respected in her union in the Bay Area in the '80s, which I as it happened was also a member of. When she went to Russia, she carried with her a recommendation letter from her union local president to Russian unionists. Her Russian boyfriend was indeed reviewed by the authorities and dismissed as a suspect, and none of her comrades could imagine that he secretly hated her.

    At least, the guy gives links to the articles about her and the assassination in the Spartacist press, which really have all the information ever found out about who killed her. It did have all the earmarks of a professional assassination, no money taken, a neatly arranged corpse, etc. etc. The first of many political assassinations that have happened in Russia since. And in Ukraine, and other ex-Soviet countries...

    -AMH-

    PS: Be it noted that the 1992 Mayday edition of Workers Vanguard, which the slanderer helpfully provided a link for, included on page 11 a speech by Trotsky's grandson Esteban Volkov, which says everything really needing to be said about the assassination.
    Last edited by A Marxist Historian; 02-03-2017 at 06:38 AM.

  3. #11793
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,343

    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    Hostile indeed, and much of it I know is false, as I was a member of the organization back in the '70s. There were no 70 hour work weeks. That is only possible if you are a Wall Street trader or a Silicon Valley cubicle geek, living off the fat of the land to maintain your sanity. Except during an actual revolution or something, that is unsustainable unless you are rich.

    That is why the Healyites, the largest English Trotskyist organization back in the '70, who really did exactly that pretty much, exploded into a score of pieces which all disappeared. The only survivors, the SEP and WSWS of David North, don't even publish a newspaper, much less hawk it on street corners. And that is why the Spartacists are still around, as they just don't do that kind of thing.

    It's quite true, when I was a member there was a lot of work and a serious pledge schedule, demonstrating to me that they were actually the real thing not phonies. But nothing like what this guy describes. He really gives the game away when he describes the truly excellent internal education programs (confession, in the '70s I was the education director of my local for a couple years) as political "education." I suppose he's trying to imply they were some sort of Mao style brainwashings, instead they were serious continual study of the Marxist classics and basic documents of the Trotskyist movement-including basic Spartacist documents of course.

    That Robertson had to approve every word is beyond ridiculous. Would have paralyzed the organization and made a biweekly newspaper impossible. For 30 years the WV editor was Jan Norden, who had had disagreements on various minor issues with other leaders from time to time almost from the beginning--which only turned major in the aftermath of the demoralizing Soviet collapse. And so did other "top leaders" have disagreements with Robertson and each other, almost all still with the SL to this day.

    That the death of Martha Phillips was an "inside job" is totally insane. She was very well loved in and around the organization, and highly respected in her union in the Bay Area in the '80s, which I as it happened was also a member of. When she went to Russia, she carried with her a recommendation letter from her union local president to Russian unionists. Her Russian boyfriend was indeed reviewed by the authorities and dismissed as a suspect, and none of her comrades could imagine that he secretly hated her.

    At least, the guy gives links to the articles about her and the assassination in the Spartacist press, which really have all the information ever found out about who killed her. It did have all the earmarks of a professional assassination, no money taken, a neatly arranged corpse, etc. etc. The first of many political assassinations that have happened in Russia since. And in Ukraine, and other ex-Soviet countries...

    -AMH-

    PS: Be it noted that the 1992 Mayday edition of Workers Vanguard, which the slanderer helpfully provided a link for, included on page 11 a speech by Trotsky's grandson Esteban Volkov, which says everything really needing to be said about the assassination.
    The suggestion that it might have been an 'inside' assault came from a then leader of the Spartacists. The hostile view of the organisation and yours differ in emphasis, detail and tone, but not in substance. I've heard very similar from the SWP (UK) people who've jumped ship, from ex-Healyites, from the SP and many other Trotskyist groups. Some of it can be put down to moaning by middle class hobby activists who don't want serious demands put on them (this would be the standard response), but the pattern is consistent (as is the knee jerk to point the finger at another Trotskyist sect/s rather than to deal with the issues). It hasn't worked. Trotsyism has not succeeded in building mass parties in the last 80 years, or in leading a social revolution anywhere. Time to ask a few serious questions about the movement and what is wrong.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  4. #11794
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,931

    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    The suggestion that it might have been an 'inside' assault came from a then leader of the Spartacists. The hostile view of the organisation and yours differ in emphasis, detail and tone, but not in substance. I've heard very similar from the SWP (UK) people who've jumped ship, from ex-Healyites, from the SP and many other Trotskyist groups. Some of it can be put down to moaning by middle class hobby activists who don't want serious demands put on them (this would be the standard response), but the pattern is consistent (as is the knee jerk to point the finger at another Trotskyist sect/s rather than to deal with the issues). It hasn't worked. Trotsyism has not succeeded in building mass parties in the last 80 years, or in leading a social revolution anywhere. Time to ask a few serious questions about the movement and what is wrong.
    So why have so many ostensibly Trotskyist organizations gone so wrong and done so poorly? Robertson had a fine line about that which I remember well.

    "Lack of power corrupts, absolute lack of power corrupts absolutely."

    Up until the collapse of the USSR, the seeming prosperity of American and European capitalism after WWII in the West and the aureole around "official" communism of Stalin, Khruschchev, Mao, Castro and Ho Chi Minh in the East and the Global South, created by the world-historic Soviet victory over Hitler, isolated authentic communism. And the collapse of the USSR made that worse, discrediting all forms of communism in the eyes of the workers of the world on the grounds that "socialism has been tried and it hasn't worked."

    You've had steady rightward motion and the decline of pretty much all left organizations worldwide ever since, something only slowly beginning to reverse here and there. As and when political recovery begins and workers begin to think in terms of workers revolution, if Trotskyism is not in good shape, Stalinism in all its forms is pretty much on the dustbin of history.

    And the attempts to create something new on revolutionary lines so far have been tragicomic failures, as Occupy illustrated. The only serious thing one sees out of attempts to revive anarchism has been .. the black blocs?

    Trotskyism and Stalinism are not just ideological variants, they represent really the two possible fundamental political interpretations from a revolutionary perspective of the experience of the Russian Revolution and the Soviet Union, the only successful model for a workers revolution in history, inevitably the touchstone for future workers revolutions. Ecclesiastes: "there is nothing new under the sun."

    As for inside job, I don't know who or what you are referring to. Yossi Schwartz, then the lawyer for Martha Phillips in the legal issues after her death?

    By "inside job," do you mean the suggestion in one of the pieces that it could have been, not a Spartacist but a "Trotskyist" inside job? Namely involvement by the only other Trotskyist organization with a meaningful presence in the USSR during the Soviet collapse, the Northites? They had recruited a prominent dissident Soviet intellectual, Vadim Rogovin, which automatically gave them some impact.

    Hostility between the Spartacists and the Healyites/Northites, to try to be objective, was indeed extreme and very longstanding, and for both organizations there was nothing more important than the fate of Trotskyist intervention into the USSR, and their efforts were certainly counterposed (as my postings show, I share that hostility, so the effort is difficult).

    -AMH-

  5. #11795
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    16,652

    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Joke:

    Q: What do you do if an attractive young spart tries to "horizontally recruit" you?

    A: Go along for the ride.



    http://www.revleft.com/vb/threads/13...al-recruitment
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  6. #11796
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,931

    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Joke:

    Q: What do you do if an attractive young spart tries to "horizontally recruit" you?

    A: Go along for the ride.



    http://www.revleft.com/vb/threads/13...al-recruitment
    "Horizontal recruitment" was a favorite subject of humor within the Spartacist League in the 1970s, but I've never heard of anyone in the SL actually trying it.

    But, 'way back in 1972, I remember a woman then in the SL telling me of a former housemate of hers in the American SWP doing exactly that.

    She walked by a closed door in the commune she was in, and she heard a female voice she knew saying "permanent revolution," (pant, pant) "the transitional program" (pant, pant), etc.

    -AMH-

  7. #11797
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Out of my mind
    Posts
    12,121

    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Ukrainians are celebrating the first day of visa-free travel to most EU countries, which President Petro Poroshenko has welcomed as a "a final 'goodbye' to the Russian Empire."

    Radio Free Europe
    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  8. #11798
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,343

    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Joke:

    Q: What do you do if an attractive young spart tries to "horizontally recruit" you?

    A: Go along for the ride.



    http://www.revleft.com/vb/threads/13...al-recruitment


    HISTORICAL FACTS FOLLOW (THE AUTHOR WAS THERE) :

    The only "grain of truth in it" is that young people in left-wing groups, Trots, Stalinists, Maoists, etc., tend and tended in the past to be horny as hell and couple off, long-term, short-term, overnight, etc. In the 1940s and 1950s, when the Stalinists in the US were into "New Soviet Man" and all that ****, there was a certain amount of frowning on sexual behavior among the CP youth by the Party leadership. And there was an accusation that Trots engaged in "horizontal recruitment."

    Truth is, young CPers ***d as much as anyone else on the Left (which was a haven for sex in the 50s and early 60s), but they tended to keep it a little more quiet. And the charge against the Trots was a slander.

    RED DAVE
    ...
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  9. #11799
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,343

    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    "Horizontal recruitment" was a favorite subject of humor within the Spartacist League in the 1970s, but I've never heard of anyone in the SL actually trying it.

    But, 'way back in 1972, I remember a woman then in the SL telling me of a former housemate of hers in the American SWP doing exactly that.

    She walked by a closed door in the commune she was in, and she heard a female voice she knew saying "permanent revolution," (pant, pant) "the transitional program" (pant, pant), etc.
    ??
    -AMH-
    People have sex ? Well, that is news. Heavens, what next ?
    There was also a history of US agents/ assets using sex to disrupt parties on the left.
    Harassment of women, blackmail, stirring up personal disputes etc. to generate disruption in left organisations of all kinds. Related to Cointelpro. I guess you may have heard/ read similar.
    Although of course, any opportunist roosting in any party, left or right, is liable to abuse their position.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 11-06-2017 at 11:48 AM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  10. #11800
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    78,343

    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Ha - just noticed. EVERYONE who posted on that RevLeft trolling thread was BANNED.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

Page 787 of 787 FirstFirst ... 287687737777785786787

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Share us
Follow Us