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Thread: Crisis in the Ukraine

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Why in the world should Ukraine want to be in a "free trade agreement" with the disintegrating EU?

    None other than Germany’s leading news weekly, Der Spiegel, commented Saturday on the collapse of the EU’s policy on Ukraine, as underlining the urgency of defining a new approach, particularly to Russia and Putin, whose enemy image as a man of awe needs overhaul. Merkel’s wait-and-see policy which keeps distance to Russia and Putin, has to be replaced by a more active approach—details of which the article however fails to address, otherwise.

    http://laroucheirishbrigade.com/2013...ards-the-east/
    Educating a Renaissance...http://www.laroucheirishbrigade.com//

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine


  3. #33
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  4. #34
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    China is being hardly mentioned but it is a significant player:

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/riskmap/...ews-for-china/

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    That does not appear to be correct. There were only a few hundred Trotskyists in Greece in WW2, but they organised themselves and fought under the Stalinist controlled ELAS.
    Really? A few hundred organised themselves and fought? Where is the evidence of this?

    You have quoted some text that refers to a group of trotskyists in Agrinion who wished to fight with the ELAS but were killed (or 20 of their leaders were killed) by the communists.

    You provided no link for this but I have traced it to a book by Robert J. Alexander (recycled by various Trotskyite sites) called "International Trotskyism 1929-1985: A Documented Analysis of the Movement".

    I think that even you would agree that Alexander was some sort of agent working within the AFL-CIA:

    Alexander was active in the socialist and trade union movements. In 1934, politicized by the Great Depression, Alexander joined the Young People's Socialist League, the youth section of the Socialist Party of America.[1] He continued organizing activities for YPSL while at Columbia and remained an active member of its parent group, the Socialist Party of America, serving as a member of its executive council 1957 to 1966.[1] When the Socialist Party changed its name in December 1972 to Social Democrats, USA (SDUSA), he maintained his membership until 1980; according to Perrone's biographical sketch, Alexander thought that SDUSA had become "too conservative".

    It was as a leader of the New Jersey YPSLs that he first met Jay Lovestone, then head of the Communist Party, Opposition. Alexander would later go on six missions to Latin America for Lovestone, first under the auspices of the Free Trade Union Committee, then under the direction of the AFL-CIO International Department.

    Alexander was a member of the Board of Directors of the Rand School of Social Science from 1952 until its closure in 1956.[1] He served on the League for Industrial Democracy's National Council and was an active member of Americans for Democratic Action and a delegate to several of its national conventions.

    During the 1950s, Alexander served as a consultant for the American Federation of Labor and AFL-CIO on the organized labor movement in Latin American and the Caribbean. In 1961, he was named by president-elect John F. Kennedy to the Task Force on Latin America, which recommended the establishment of the Alliance for Progress.

    Alexander was also a lifelong member of the Council on Foreign Relations.
    In his book which you have quoted Alexander cites someone called René Dazy as the source of this information. (René Dazy: Fusillez les Chiens Enragés... La Génocide des Trotskistes.) I have not been able to find out anything about Dazy but judging by the title his book he was almost certainly a trotskyite and probably not Greek (so his information would not be first hand).

    But more importantly I have not been able to find any other source for this story.

    So I guess what I am saying to you is that (unless you can come up with a corroborating source) I am not even willing to cede to you these 20 guys (in all of Europe) as Trotskyites who were willing to fight the Nazis.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Any objections to the Greek discussion being split into a separate thread ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Really? A few hundred organised themselves and fought? Where is the evidence of this?

    You have quoted some text that refers to a group of trotskyists in Agrinion who wished to fight with the ELAS but were killed (or 20 of their leaders were killed) by the communists.

    You provided no link for this but I have traced it to a book by Robert J. Alexander (recycled by various Trotskyite sites) called "International Trotskyism 1929-1985: A Documented Analysis of the Movement".

    I think that even you would agree that Alexander was some sort of agent working within the AFL-CIA:

    In his book which you have quoted Alexander cites someone called René Dazy as the source of this information. (René Dazy: Fusillez les Chiens Enragés... La Génocide des Trotskistes.) I have not been able to find out anything about Dazy but judging by the title his book he was almost certainly a trotskyite and probably not Greek (so his information would not be first hand).

    But more importantly I have not been able to find any other source for this story.

    So I guess what I am saying to you is that (unless you can come up with a corroborating source) I am not even willing to cede to you these 20 guys (in all of Europe) as Trotskyites who were willing to fight the Nazis.
    Here is a link to Alexander's article.
    https://www.marxists.org/history/eto...greece.htm#n37

    You don't like Alexander as a source because he is a CIA man, and you don't like Dazy, who was the relevant source, because you think he might be a Trotskyist. There is very little written on this in English: perhaps someone might come up with something that would provide you with certainy, one way or another.

    This article looks at the opposing positions within the Trotskyist movement leading up to and during WW2, and generally supports Trotsky's pro militarist position and his analysis that revolutionary situations would come about after a few years of war.

    http://www.marxists.org/history/etol...4/brouww2.html

    Some of the reports of massacres of Trotskyists in Greece by Stalinists were from the horse's mouth, so I guess you don't dispute them.

    In this article discusses another pro-CIA writer denigrates Trotsky's "militarist" position of "militarising the party" taking part in the war and organising the working class to fight to defend the Soviet Union.

    http://www.marxists.org/history/etol...appx-wwii.html

    At the outset of WW2 there were about 5,000 Trotskyists, world wide.
    Hundreds of them were in prison or interned (virtually all of the Germans and a lot of the Greeks). Others were in tiny and fragmented groups and pretty mixed, politically. Trotsky had just been murdered by a Stalinist agent and the movement was split over whether to join up and fight (if in a state opposing Germany). At the beginning of the war of course there was a non agression pact between the USSR and Germany.
    Some UK Trotskyists broke ranks and joined the British forces, others the merchant navy. Some British Trotskyists high-tailed it to Ireland and hid out there to avoid internment in the UK. Others (France and Greece) worked underground: some of them were captured and killed. They were at risk of murder by Stalinists and execution if in Germany or the occupied countries. The different groups were not able to communicate to any great extent although some journals were circulated through the merchant navies. The war was primarily seen by them as an Imperialist war not different from WW1, to be opposed by workers. Trotsky saw it both as an Imperialist war, but also an attack on the Soviet Union, which had to be defended. If the Dazy book is correct, it is interesting to note that Trotskyists who wanted to fight were killed by Stalinists (as was the case with Trotsky himself). The disagreement clearly did not lie on that issue.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 02-12-2013 at 03:37 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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  9. #39
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine




    Cops being purposefully passive after telling off for beating people up yesterday?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Moscow is offering Kiev a sweetener with cheaper gas if they cosy on up to them. All of this is to favour Putin who favours closer ties of former Soviet states to rival the EU.Protestors have stormed government buildings in Kiev and are still inside. Money talks as the man says, Ukraine has its head turned with the promise of the equivelant of a few cheap trinkets...

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...-led-pact.html
    History is the only true teacher, the revolution the best school for the proletariat - Rosa Luxembourg

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Problem here is EU is limited by laws, ethics and morals that simply don't influence an authoritarian entity like Russia.
    Oook.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    EU, ethics and morals in one sentece???

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by musashi View Post
    Problem here is EU is limited by laws, ethics and morals that simply don't influence an authoritarian entity like Russia.
    Various Russian apologists should be along very soon to let us know that Putin and his mates are not so bad as the EU....
    History is the only true teacher, the revolution the best school for the proletariat - Rosa Luxembourg

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    I hope the fascist demonstrators do not win.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post



    Cops being purposefully passive after telling off for beating people up yesterday?
    The cute hoors ...... you'd never be up to them!
    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies.”

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