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Thread: Crisis in the Ukraine

  1. #1
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    Default Crisis in the Ukraine

    I've just opened a forum for discussion of the politics of the Ukraine.

    Police have violently broken up pro EU protests today.


    http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/uk...-riot-police-v


    Pro Eu demonstrators reportedly include fascists.

    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Who reported that fascists were among the demonstrators, I wonder.

    When Ukrainians voted anti-European Union Viktor Yanukovych into power by a slim majority in 2009, they knew exactly that this meant keeping Ukraine under the thumb of Moscow's former Communist KGB elite.

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    Who reported that fascists were among the demonstrators, I wonder.
    You can be assured that Svoboda are centrally involved in the demonstrations:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ukr..._%22Svoboda%22

    http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/a...-svoboda-party

    And their paramilitary organisation "Ukraine Patriots"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-mnRuckQ

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    pro EU fascists? surely not

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. FIVE View Post
    pro EU fascists? surely not
    There are a lot of very worrying signs of fascism growing across Europe, both at the level of the institutions and policies that brought the hard right into the Greek Government and that are introducing law that reduces citizen rights and on the ground in very rapidly growing fascist movements.

    The ineffectiveness of the left has opened the door: it is much weaker politically and less organised by many times than it was in the 1930s when there were mass Labour and Communist Parties.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. FIVE View Post
    pro EU fascists? surely not
    Yes indeed.

    http://en.svoboda.org.ua/

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    I see that they are looking to create a "pre-Revolutionary situation." It seems that everyone knows how to use the lessons of the past except for the left.

    The President has condemned police violence against yesterday's demonstration, which has given the protestors sympathy and support that they would not otherwise have had.

    What are the policies of Svoboda ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post

    What are the policies of Svoboda ?
    The usual. Anti-semitism, anti-communism, Russophobia, homophobia, anti-emigrant, covering up of the past crimes of Ukranian fascists, etc. Oh ... and of course they are against the injustice of a society dominated by a handful of rich, the honey in the poison.

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Svoboda are a very small minority, noisy but small and certainly do not represent anything approaching mainstream opinion in Ukraine. To try and represent Ukrainians as anti-semite,anti emigrant and homophobic is disingenuous. There are nutters in Ukraine, just as there are everywhere but they are a small minority.

    So Svoboda can be ignored because despite the noise they make, their policies are repellent to the majority of Ukrainians. Tymoshenko´s party and UDAR, lead by Klitchko, are the main opposition in Ukraine, dwarfing Svoboda into insignificance. Svoboda´s problem is that young Ukrainians tend to be well-educated and can see through the populism to the garbage of their core agenda.

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Golden Dawn is a very small minority in Greece, and do not represent anything approaching mainstream opinion in Greece either. But they do have a disproportionate influence on current policy making, simply because of their vile and violent tactics.
    Svoboda is extremly popular in Western Ukraine, not so much in the East and South. Western Ukraine happens to be the poorer part of this vast country. There are also rumours, just like here in Greece, that the party is in fact tolerated (some even say funded) by mainstream political parties because it suits them to have these thugs do the dirty work for them, the very same as Golden Dawn is still tolerated here in Greece.
    Dismissing them as a temporary nuisance is a very big mistake, as we have learned to our shame here. Just like Golden Dawn, Svoboda consistently polls around the 10 - 12%, which gives them a much stronger position in Parliament than people understand.
    Last edited by Ephilant; 01-12-2013 at 12:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Maligning the Ukrainian protesters by an unsupported allegation that they are fascists serves only the interests of the pro-Russian government of Viktor Yanukovych.

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Pro Eu demonstrators reportedly include fascists.
    not
    that they are fascists

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    Maligning the Ukrainian protesters by an unsupported allegation that they are fascists serves only the interests of the pro-Russian government of Viktor Yanukovych.
    There was no suggestion by anyone that all the protesters were fascists.

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    Maligning the Ukrainian protesters by an unsupported allegation that they are fascists serves only the interests of the pro-Russian government of Viktor Yanukovych.
    Who are the protestors who are not fascists ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Crisis in the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Who are the protestors who are not fascists ?
    I know of none and I have read no report to the contrary.

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