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Thread: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. FIVE View Post
    The question starts from an assumption that drugs are not already available and used everywhere. Normalisation has sailed long long ago.
    Illegal drugs are not normalized don't pretend otherwise. Taking drugs is not viewed the same in society as taking painkillers or having a pint. There are degrees of normalization, as I'm sure you know. I'm not saying drugs are an alien concept to people but they are not on the same level as the tings I mentioned, for example.

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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaadi View Post
    Introducing it on a trial basis is the only way to find that out. Other countries don't seem to have gone insane by relaxing their cannabis laws, but we'll only know the effects on ours by trying it out. We do know that societies since the year dot have been brewing and smoking and eating mind altering substances. It's a fundamental part of human nature, mitigating the worst effects of it is the best that can be hoped for. So in that logical frame of mind and knowing that illegal drug supply is a hugely destructive force right through the length and breadth of the country, taking the criminals in the supply chain out of the equation seems a worthwhile experiment.

    As for who profits, well you have heard of micro-breweries not that the two necessarily equate, but you get the idea that a well thought out cannabis strategy may not be all bad.
    "Do it and see what happens" is a bit of a haphazard approach is it not? In general I don't find the argument that a law being broken means it should be scrapped very convincing. But I agree that everything should be done to stop criminals and prevent them exploiting and preying on people and every avenue should be looked at including legalization and regulation. Cigarettes are legal but criminals make a huge amount of money smuggling and selling them. If cannabis is highly regulated and presumably heavily taxed (or taxed to any degree) I doubt that the drug dealers will cease to exist.

    But now we have veered away from just cannabis and are talking about all kinds of drugs aren't we, if we want to eliminate the drug dealers. They may sell less cannabis but they will still be selling other drugs, so they won't have gone away. We have to ask ourselves if legalizing cannabis will have much impact on the criminals, if any. And we have to weigh that against any possible implications legalizing cannabis may have, I asked whether or not legalizing it will lead to increased consumption. This is a reasonable question to ask.

    I'm coming from a position that you mightn't be, and that is that any consumption of drugs like this is bad (alcohol too) both for the individual and society. So whatever option results in the least amount of people taking drugs is the one I'm in favor of, this may be legalization coupled with intensive education about their effects as well as well funded addiction services, counseling and other supports. Levels of smoking have declined because of education and campaigns. I don't know what the best option is, I have an open mind on this.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    Illegal drugs are not normalized don't pretend otherwise. Taking drugs is not viewed the same in society as taking painkillers or having a pint. There are degrees of normalization, as I'm sure you know. I'm not saying drugs are an alien concept to people but they are not on the same level as the tings I mentioned, for example.
    yes, but arguments about normalisation are like abortion floodgates. Nice to pretend your finger is in the dyke but it doesn't address reality.
    You can stick with the police cat & mouse game, media scaremongering and stigma around education or we can make some attempt to manage what actually exists now. For instance, the concept of harm reduction is alive in several countries across Europe where gone are the days of nightclub owners turning off taps (mostly) and instead effort is made to encourage responsible drug taking, which hur hur is not an oxymoron. Events, concerts, clubs, festivals etc have stalls and tents offering advice, treatment or just somewhere to relax. Most drugs remain illegal but authorities have accepted that is use widespread and the very worst can be prevented. That takes a big shift in attitudes but it filters down and everyone is safer and better educated as a result.


    The health issues around cannabis are real but we are better equipped to deal or even begin to talk about it when we admit drug use has long been established.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. FIVE View Post
    yes, but arguments about normalisation are like abortion floodgates. Nice to pretend your finger is in the dyke but it doesn't address reality.
    You can stick with the police cat & mouse game, media scaremongering and stigma around education or we can make some attempt to manage what actually exists now. For instance, the concept of harm reduction is alive in several countries across Europe where gone are the days of nightclub owners turning off taps (mostly) and instead effort is made to encourage responsible drug taking, which hur hur is not an oxymoron. Events, concerts, clubs, festivals etc have stalls and tents offering advice, treatment or just somewhere to relax. Most drugs remain illegal but authorities have accepted that is use widespread and the very worst can be prevented. That takes a big shift in attitudes but it filters down and everyone is safer and better educated as a result.


    The health issues around cannabis are real but we are better equipped to deal or even begin to talk about it when we admit drug use has long been established.
    I asked a simple, reasonable question. And that was if legalization will result in increased consumption whether thats by normalization or whatever. Why are you coming out with an attack like that accusing me of wanting to stick with "the police cat & mouse game, media scaremongering and stigma around education"?

    Do you not think that the possibility of increased (or maybe it would result in a decrease!) consumption as a result of changing the law is something worth considering?

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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    Do you not think that the possibility of increased (or maybe it would result in a decrease!) consumption as a result of changing the law is something worth considering?
    That only matters if you're presuming increased consumption is a bad thing.

    Why are you coming out with an attack
    Wasn't. Just saying normalisation arguments are actually a block on people being safer etc

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. FIVE View Post
    That only matters if you're presuming increased consumption is a bad thing.



    Wasn't. Just saying normalisation arguments are actually a block on people being safer etc
    Ha. So you don't think levels of drug consumption is something worth considering? Care to explain why, bearing in mind data like this has umpteen uses including gauging the amount of money and support needed for that harm reduction schemes you mention?

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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    Ha. So you don't think levels of drug consumption is something worth considering?
    I didn't say it isn't worth considering I said it only matters if you think increased consumption was a negative. If more people were smoking but a safer strand of cannabis it would be infinitely better than what we have now. People wouldn't have to smoke whatever they're given and drug use would be moved into an environment where identifying problems and seeking help would, Irish health service aside, be less stigmatising.

    Care to explain why, bearing in mind data like this has umpteen uses including gauging the amount of money and support needed for that harm reduction schemes you mention?
    The harm reduction I mentioned is paid from the profit of running events. I use it as an example of accepting a problem and making an effort to deal with it.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    Grand, so it is worth considering which brings us full circle, back to my original question. If you don't know the answer that's fine, neither do I. But it is always worth considering the results a law will have. Maybe it will mean more people will smoke it rather than drink - a previous poster seems to think that that is a positive. Who knows, but it is something worth considering.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    With regard to the question that SDG posed I think it is basic common sense that affordability, availability, and level of social acceptability are all factors in the level of drug use.

    Legalising cannabis will, of course, have a significant effect on the last two factors. It may also result in cheaper prices but I don't know that.

    Furthermore, that legalisation will result in increased use is not only understood by proponents of legalisation but seen as something to be welcomed as they view cannabis use as far less dangerous than alcohol. (Whether increased cannabis use would affect the level of alcohol use is however highly debatable .. you could very well end up with young people drinking as much and smoking more dope as well. Personally, I don't know any cannabis users who do not drink as well.)

    Personally, I can't see any great benefit in legalisation and the arguments put forward in favour of it do not make a great deal of sense.

    Firstly, it is difficult to see what problem is actually being addressed. There are not large numbers of young people filling the jails at the moment as a result of possession of cannabis for personal use. I'd be surprised if there is actually anyone at all. Also harm reduction arguments make no sense as to my knowledge you do not get people presenting to Emergency departments as a result of having ingested bad cannabis. The health problems associated with use of the drug will be the same if it is obtained legally. So what exactly is the concrete problem that legalisation will solve?


    Furthermore, contrary to the impression that cannabis use is something widespread in the society that should be normalised through legislation, it is in fact a very minority activity. I have not been able to find very recent figures but a study from 2006 indicated that current users (i.e. used in the last month) in the adult population was 2.6%.

    The proportion of adults who reported using cannabis in the last year (recent use) increased from 5% in 2002/3 to 6% in 2006/7. The proportion of young adults who reported using cannabis in the last year increased from 9% in 2002/3 to 10% in 2006/7.

    The proportion of adults who reported using cannabis in the last month (current use) remained stable at 2.6%.
    So, in effect, you would be making socially acceptable a practice that is engaged in by a very small percentage of the population. A practice that has serious associated health risks.

    Illegal cannabis sellers would not necessarily be eliminated by legalisation as the case of tobacco shows. 30 percent of tobacco sales in Ireland at the moment are apparently illegal. With growth in the market from legalisation there may be actually more illegal sellers. And with the stigma of "drug dealer" removed more people might well be inclined to go into the cannabis selling game. And, of course, I don't think anyone is advocating making the purchase of cannabis legal for young people under 18 so a very substantial percentage of the market would be unaffected by legalisation.

    In weighing up the benefits of the legalisation of cannabis (I can't really see any) against the possible dangers (far greater use as a result of availability and social acceptability) one can only conclude that the status quo should not be disturbed. There are considerable health risks associated with the use of cannabis. Strokes for example. Also cannabis is a disaster for any young person in a fragile mental state and can lead to schizophrenia. Also as THC levels have increased over the years the numbers presenting for addiction treatment across Europe who list cannabis as the primary drug used have increased significantly. People often point to increase government revenue as a consequence of legalisation but it should be borne in mind as well that there will be increased costs to the health care system from increased use.
    Last edited by Sam Lord; 06-11-2013 at 04:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    I'm pretty sure over three percent of people smoke weed. Also the jailing of people for it may not be common but the stigma around it is enough to condemn a persons future. I worked for a big telecoms company where every week people would email each other about nights out even though one member of staff was fired for saying and emailing a joke about alternative cigarettes.

    The hypocrisy of irish society is what
    bothers me. Also doesn't hemp have other uses which make legalising it problematic for various cartels.
    Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk 2

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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    I'm pretty sure over three percent of people smoke weed.
    We can all be sure of many things ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Also the jailing of people for it may not be common but the stigma around it is enough to condemn a persons future.
    Does it happen at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    I worked for a big telecoms company where every week people would email each other about nights out even though one member of staff was fired for saying and emailing a joke about alternative cigarettes.
    I'm not sure what individual company policies have to do with legalisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    The hypocrisy of irish society is what
    bothers me.
    I presume you are talking about alcohol being legal while cannabis is not but that is not something particular to Irish society. It may be hypocritical but one has to balance this against the consequences of making another potentially harmful substance both socially acceptable and readily available. It seems to me hypocritical that bankers are allowed to plunder the national treasury while people can be jailed for stealing very small amounts of things ... but I don't believe this warrants making all theft legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Also doesn't hemp have other uses which make legalising it problematic for various cartels.
    I don't really understand this point. Commercial hemp (with little or no THC content) is grown entirely legally in many countries.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    . Levels of smoking have declined because of education and campaigns. I don't know what the best option is, I have an open mind on this.
    I can't speak for Ireland but in Canada levels of smoking have dramatically decreased over the last decade primarily, in my opinion, because a social stigma became attached to smoking. What was once entirely socially acceptable is now viewed no more favourably in significant circles than, say, farting loudly. This has succeeded in dramatically reducing what was a significant percentage of people who smoked. Legalisation of cannabis would be, in my opinion. moving in entirely the opposite direction ... i.e. making something that is indulged in by relatively few people socially acceptable.

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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    I'm against legalisation.

    That said, if anyone's got a spliff I'll have a toke.

    If the State legalises cannabis (not a hope), it will give the impression that it's any of the State's business, what I put in my body.

    I can currently roll a cigarette, tear up a plastic bag and put that into it too. I can smoke it. And I'll be breaking no law.

    The law's an ass and our legislators are arseholes.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Seán Ryan View Post
    I'm against legalisation.

    That said, if anyone's got a spliff I'll have a toke.

    If the State legalises cannabis (not a hope), it will give the impression that it's any of the State's business, what I put in my body.

    I can currently roll a cigarette, tear up a plastic bag and put that into it too. I can smoke it. And I'll be breaking no law.

    The law's an ass and our legislators are arseholes.
    I'm not moralistic about drug use. (And, I suppose, in a much more advanced society it could be viewed as being your own business what you put into your body ..and the society would also have the resources to care for you if it turned out to be harmful ...though we are a long way away from that.)

    But I can't have helped noticing that in our present society it is pretty much the kids from working class ghettoes who get messed up on drugs. This why I'm always sensitive to attempts to normalise drug use. With what Marx described as the "opium of the masses" loosing its grip I wouldn't like to see it replaced with the real thing.

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    Default Re: Ming's weed quest - Cannabis Regulation Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    I'm not moralistic about drug use. (And, I suppose, in a much more advanced society it could be viewed as being your own business what you put into your body ..and the society would also have the resources to care for you if it turned out to be harmful ...though we are a long way away from that.)

    But I can't have helped noticing that in our present society it is pretty much the kids from working class ghettoes who get messed up on drugs. This why I'm always sensitive to attempts to normalise drug use. With what Marx described as the "opium of the masses" loosing its grip I wouldn't like to see it replaced with the real thing.
    I thoroughly agree.

    I think this legalising criminalising fiasco is largely responsible for what makes various substances attractive. Very few folks smoke plastic, like in my example, despite the fact that it'd probably get one off one's skull. My example might be a little extreme. Maybe a better example would be the practice of smoking what was once called "embalming fluid" which consisted of smoking bits of wood or turf mixed with tobacco.

    I think the very thought of smoking embalming fluid to be an incredibly ridiculous one. That's possibly why I've never tried it, even when alcohol or whatever my fancy at the time weren't available. Yet, all the same, I regularly smoke tobacco, which is no less stupid or ridiculous. I often ask myself if I'd have started in the first place if society wasn't preoccupied with the practice of it. I think artificially raising or lowering the importance of a particular subject, rather than honestly letting the dice fall where they may, plays a massive role in the administration of the opium of the masses. But instead of debating the alleged rights we have to control each other, we end up debating the rights and wrongs of controlling ourselves, which plays right into the game, much like a guitarist standing too close to the amp causing feedback.

    Methinks society will always include rights of passage. I think a smart society would take heed in this and learn that the taboos that it defines often become the very ingredients of these rights of passage. Without criminalisation and decriminalisation, stupidity exhibits its wares much more truthfully and taboos can form naturally rather than synthetically by the aforementioned arseholes.

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