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Thread: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    I haven't got to that bit yet, but the book is about a murder gang in Tyrone and Armagh and associated collusion.
    Tiernan covered the whole thing in depth. The murder triangle. Named the names. Pictures of the farm they operated out of etc.

    You seem a bit down on Cadwallader but I've heard nothing but praise for the book from political enemies of SF. I've found the book quite overwhelming so far, the examples of collusion have come quick and fast.
    Well, for someone apparently interested in getting to the truth of killings the way she handled the O'Connor murder was pretty shocking.

    Contrast it with, say, Liz Walsh in Magill at the time:

    Outside of Provisional republican circles there is no doubt that the IRA is responsible for the killing, one that would necessarily have had to be sanctioned at the top – at Army Council level.

    If the family know who shot him, if eyewitnesses and the RUC know who did it, it makes the official silence surrounding the killing all the more remarkable. At this stage, there is more evidence available of IRA involvement than there was available in the killing of Andrew Kearney, the Belfast man murdered by the IRA in July 1998. His killing was condemned by the Bishop of Down and Conor, senior members of the British and Irish governments and Opposition politicians and led ultimately to Sinn Féin being suspended from the Stormont talks.

    In contrast, there appears to be a Nelsonian blind eye turned to the O’Connor killing and a de facto breach of the IRA ceasefire.

    The murder happened two days before the Taoiseach Bertie Ahern made his Bodenstown speech, in which he promised to crush the Real IRA. There was no reference to the O’Connor killing. The Catholic Church, the SDLP and the Opposition politicians have maintained a deafening silence. The question is why?

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    Will you be reading the book? Hard for me to say what exactly is new given that I haven't read the other books.

    A bit harsh to write off her work or to cast the whole thing in doubt because of one article, no matter how bad, that was a current event when she was writing about it, this is a scholarly endeavor building on years of research, interviews and HET reports. She's not making any money from it, all proceeds are going to the Pat Finucaine center, I'd be inclined to support her work as most people seem to be doing and to be fair, as a case worker for the center she has done some good work.
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    The title "Lethal Allies" suggests an equal relationship between the British State and loyalist paramilitaries, as does the phrase collusion. The reaction after Dublin and Monaghan evidence emerged was for the paramilitaries to step forward to take the rap (contrary to evidence). The reaction when still more evidence emerges is to say that it was "collusion." From what I've read about the events in the North and UK, and other British colonies, I am far from convinced that there was equality or collusion of equal partners. The British State has too much form globally.

    I think that not only this book needs to be read, but the whole political context in Britain needs to be looked at, and the evidence that a "state within a state" was operating in Britain.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    Will you be reading the book? Hard for me to say what exactly is new given that I haven't read the other books.
    Yes, I will probably read it in due course. And I will compare it with previous stuff if I can get my Tierney book back as it is hard to come by. There was no big fanfare when it was published .. in fact I think distributors refused to carry it.

    A bit harsh to write off her work or to cast the whole thing in doubt because of one article, no matter how bad, that was a current event when she was writing about it, this is a scholarly endeavor building on years of research, interviews and HET reports. She's not making any money from it, all proceeds are going to the Pat Finucaine center, I'd be inclined to support her work as most people seem to be doing and to be fair, as a case worker for the center she has done some good work.
    I'm not writing off her work .. I have not read it. It's just a bit unfortunate that in her past she choose to whitewash the O'Connor killing and spin for SF. That's all. I guess at the time she did not realise that down the road she would be making a name as someone who fearlessly investigated to get to the bottom of killings in the six counties. As you say, it was a current event she was reporting on at the time but she just regurgitated the SF spin when the proverbial dogs in the street knew who had killed him. It was worse than not investigating .. she clearly had an angle ... an a false one at that.

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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    The title "Lethal Allies" suggests an equal relationship between the British State and loyalist paramilitaries, as does the phrase collusion. The reaction after Dublin and Monaghan evidence emerged was for the paramilitaries to step forward to take the rap (contrary to evidence). The reaction when still more evidence emerges is to say that it was "collusion." From what I've read about the events in the North and UK, and other British colonies, I am far from convinced that there was equality or collusion of equal partners. The British State has too much form globally.

    I think that not only this book needs to be read, but the whole political context in Britain needs to be looked at, and the evidence that a "state within a state" was operating in Britain.

    I think most peoples (mine certainly) understanding is that collusion is any act (or deliberate lack thereof) by the British state, or its forces, which aided and abetted loyalist paramilitaries.

    Without collusion there would still have been sectarian murders, but they would not have been as prolific and deliberate and the perpetrators would have been stopped far sooner and would have been far less capable.

    I don't think there was some godfather type figure in British intelligence setting up the UVF but rather the British policy was that the actions of loyalist murder gangs benefited them so they aided them via a variety of means including both positive acts and tolerating situations which benefited loyalist paramilitaries as well as occasionally guiding them through "double agents".
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    "People are hungry for the truth" Not speculation or propoganda or assumptions, but for Hard facts" They want to understand what went on here doing the "The narrative that we have all got that it was Catholic against Protestant and I think this is beginning to show people that both parts of the community were being manipulated by authorities outside in London and Stormont that we didn't know anything about at the time "

    "The British Government guards its secrets very carefully, we have only just begun to hear about what Britain did to the Mau Mau in Kenya who wanted land rights."

    "They will resist to the bitter end I think because Ireland is so close to Britain and was Britain's first colony" Over 120 died in the 1970s with this one gang.

    "Do you think there were other gangs" "Yes, I think it got worse in the 1980s - more controlled, more manipulated and more directed." "I think it went definitely to the Cabinet - mentions a famous meeting 1975 Harold Wilson, Margaret Thatcher, Airey Neave and Merlyn Rees.

    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    I think most peoples (mine certainly) understanding is that collusion is any act (or deliberate lack thereof) by the British state, or its forces, which aided and abetted loyalist paramilitaries.

    Without collusion there would still have been sectarian murders, but they would not have been as prolific and deliberate and the perpetrators would have been stopped far sooner and would have been far less capable.

    I don't think there was some godfather type figure in British intelligence setting up the UVF but rather the British policy was that the actions of loyalist murder gangs benefited them so they aided them via a variety of means including both positive acts and tolerating situations which benefited loyalist paramilitaries as well as occasionally guiding them through "double agents".
    Do you think the British State was ever involved in killing protestants ?

    (Foundation of the UVF - Gusty Spence - ex army, - in a regiment that killed civilians in Cyprus - buried under his regimental flag - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gusty_Spence )

    You posted this short study on British Counter-gangs on another thread. I guess the two publications compliment each other. There is a lot of evidence that suggests that armed British plain clothes counter gangs acted deliberately to spark off sectarian killing. These gangs were not "rogue" in any way: they were the SAS in action.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/122560071/...land-1971-1976
    Last edited by C. Flower; 13-11-2013 at 06:37 AM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin


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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    I think most peoples (mine certainly) understanding is that collusion is any act (or deliberate lack thereof) by the British state, or its forces, which aided and abetted loyalist paramilitaries.

    Without collusion there would still have been sectarian murders, but they would not have been as prolific and deliberate and the perpetrators would have been stopped far sooner and would have been far less capable.

    I don't think there was some godfather type figure in British intelligence setting up the UVF but rather the British policy was that the actions of loyalist murder gangs benefited them so they aided them via a variety of means including both positive acts and tolerating situations which benefited loyalist paramilitaries as well as occasionally guiding them through "double agents".
    I still disagree with this view which is pretty much also what Susan McKay says in her review of the book.

    There seems to be a deep denial that the British State intended to stay in Ireland, had spent hundreds of years setting up sectarian division in Ireland, and set out to foment sectarian warfare and the appearance of it, using the mad dogs it had created in parts of the protestant community. What went on was far, far, more than collusion as you defined it. There was a strategy, there was direction by the British - photographs, lists of names, supply of nearly all the weaponry used was by the British State.

    Much of this has been confirmed by British whistleblowers.

    But people have so strongly bought into the feeling that the source of the problem was these mad and bad Protestants, not the string pullers behind the scene, that evidence washes over them.

    In that sense, the British did their job successfully, because the intent was to wear opposition out in sectarian attritions, and to befoul the opposition to their continued presence in Ireland.

    The other reason I think that the British are not called on this is that the PIRA was depoliticised and that people invested huge sacrifice in a military campaign that completely misconstrued and wrongly analysed British intentions and fought a campaign that played to a large extent into British hands, notwithstanding the bravery and sacrifice of many individuals involved.

    Another big unanswered question was the extent to which collusion affected the heavily infiltrated IRA too, given the history re Stakeknife, Donaldson etc.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    So you think that if the Brits left them to it and gave no assistance whatsoever the likes of the UVF and other loyalists would not have carried out any sectarian murders?
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    So you think that if the Brits left them to it and gave no assistance whatsoever the likes of the UVF and other loyalists would not have carried out any sectarian murders?
    I'm not talking about the British State assisting the UVF and turning a blind eye to murders. I'm talking about British soldiers, covertly, but under orders, leading murder gangs. The UVF would not have existed without the British and would not have had the same access to arms.

    http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/23535

    SURVIVORS and families of the victims of the Miami Showband massacre in 1975 are to sue Britain’s Ministry of Defence and police authorities over the relationships between the British Army, the RUC and the unionist death squad killers.

    At least four serving soldiers from the British Army’s Ulster Defence Regiment – also members of the illegal Ulster Volunteer Force – set up a checkpoint on a country road outside Newry on 31 July 1975 specifically to stop the Miami Showband after they’d played a gig in Banbridge.

    Three members of the chart-topping group were gunned down after a bomb being placed in their tour minibus prematurely exploded, killing the two UDR soldiers carrying it, Harris Boyle and Wesley Somerville.

    The intention had been for the bomb to explode later, framing the band as an IRA unit transporting a bomb or blaming the IRA for the killings.


    Band members Tony Geraghty, Brian McCoy and Fran O’Toole were shot dead by the UDR/UVF while Stephen Travers was seriously wounded in the hail of gunfire. Stephen Travers said lead singer Fran O’Toole was shot 22 times in the face.


    Des McAlea (also known as ‘Des Lee’) was injured in the explosion.


    Two serving members of the Ulster Defence Regiment and one former soldier were found guilty of the murders and received life sentences.
    A report by the Historical Enquiries Team (HET) into the Miami Showband Massacre found strong evidence of RUC collusion in the murders.
    Notorious loyalist killer Robin ‘The Jackal’ Jackson, an RUC Special Branch agent as well as leader of the Mid-Ulster UVF, is said to have been linked to the attack by fingerprint evidence.
    Jackson (now deceased) later said he had been tipped off by a senior RUC officer to ‘lie low’ after the Miami massacre.
    The investigation into the attack by the HET found “disturbing evidence” of collusion between the RUC and the UVF leader in Mid-Ulster.?
    Announcing the High Court legal action on 25 October against the Ministry of Defence and the police, solicitor Michael Flanigan said the legal actions are based “primarily on the fact that the Ministry of Defence is responsible in law for the actions of its soldiers” before adding:

    “But it goes much further than that. Documents unearthed by the likes of Justice for the Forgotten and the Pat Finucane Centre show that the British Army knew there was a problem with loyalist subversion in the Ulster Defence Regiment for years before the attack on the Miami Showband and did nothing about it.
    “The proceedings will also examine the role of Special Branch in vetting membership applications to the UDR and the use of agents such Robin Jackson.”

    The case is expected to be heard next year
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    Some context -
    THE KITSON EXPERIMENT…….
    Review by Cathal McGivern of Roger Faligot’s 1983 book ‘Britain’s Military Strategy in Ireland : The Kitson Experiment’.
    From ‘IRIS’ Magazine , 1983.
    Within the British politico-military establishment , British Army General Frank Kitson pushed the view that the situation had developed to such a point that , in order to isolate the IRA , it would be necessary to take a number of immediate steps – initiate a fake peace movement (done!), manipulate loyalist gangs and orchestrate a campaign of assassinations that would terrorise the population , and wage a massive psychological war , using the SAS and other ‘special’ units to discredit the IRA and, in the short term, to try and split them between left/right , ‘doves/hawks’ , North/South and military/political axes.
    The programme was too ambitious however for the William Whitelaw regime who , apart from implementing the propaganda war and an invasion of the no-go areas to engage in control of populations , adopted a more traditional plan – direct rule , brutal repression , indiscriminate internment without trial and Bloody Sunday.
    In 1972 Frank Kitson had failed to convince his superiors of the need for a co-ordinated counter-insurgency ‘offensive’ , but some of his more brutal suggestions , like the assassination campaign against Catholics , were kept in mind . And , even though on April 22nd 1972 he was returned to Britain , gradually his ideas made headway in the North , so that- to quote Roger Faligot - “From 1975 onwards , they were totally implemented and his theories reached the top circles in the British Army , research centres , lobbies and think-tanks with NATO , and the ruling classes within Europe , beginning with West Germany , where he continued his career.”
    It appears to me that most of his strategy was implemented.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    I'm not talking about the British State assisting the UVF and turning a blind eye to murders. I'm talking about British soldiers, covertly, but under orders, leading murder gangs. The UVF would not have existed without the British and would not have had the same access to arms.

    http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/23535
    There was both I'm sure, but I would suspect there was a lot more "assisting the UVF and turning a blind eye to murders" than Brit soldiers under orders leading murder gangs. In a lot of cases they just had to give them weapons, information and turn a blind eye rather than instigate it and control the people involved from start to finish with their own men on the ground under direct orders carrying out murder. Either way it is equally condemnable.
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    There was both I'm sure, but I would suspect there was a lot more "assisting the UVF and turning a blind eye to murders" than Brit soldiers under orders leading murder gangs. In a lot of cases they just had to give them weapons, information and turn a blind eye rather than instigate it and control the people involved from start to finish with their own men on the ground under direct orders carrying out murder. Either way it is equally condemnable.
    The UDA was allegedly set up under direction of the British.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McGrath

    The UVF was not just "assisted by the British" it was full of British operatives and took direction from M15/6. Spence had been in the British Army in Cyprus. The British both led and formed murder gangs, supplied them with arms and explosives, lists of names and photographs. The British killed both Catholics and Protestants. It isn't a question of morality, or who was worse, its about historic fact, and imperial power. The British used Ireland as a training ground for neo colonial counter insurgency, and transferred the lessons, and some of the personnel, to Iraq and Afghanistan. They trained the US covert forces in Afghanistan/Pakistan in bomb making.
    They developed and used neo-colonial counter insurgency methods in Ireland - counter gangs, psyops, torture techniques, astro turfed social movements and infiltration of insurgent groups.

    British insiders have written about the use of protracted low grade war for social control purposes. It can be used y the state power to camouflage all kinds of illegal operations and ultimately wears out populations to the point where they are prepared to accept anything that calls itself peace.

    Peace of course comes with built in permanent sectarian political frameworks and "peace walls" to keep the population divided.






    Last edited by C. Flower; 13-11-2013 at 07:02 AM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Launch of new book; 'Lethal Allies: Britain's Secret War in Ireland'. Events in Belfast, Derry and Dublin


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