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Thread: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

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    Default New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    New evidence has emerged in the last few days that clearly proves that the South African Police planned and carried out a massacre of srtriking mineworkers at Marikana in August 2012.

    The Marikana Inquiry has discovered a new video of SAPS Brigadier Adriaan Calitz briefing police about the operation at Marikana two days after the massacre. In the course of the video Calitz states;

    “From the planning to the execution was 110 percent. I have to congratulate you. Exactly how we planned it and we briefed the commanders. Exactly we executed in that line...Nothing, Nothing, Nothing was wrong”
    The Brigadier then becomes aware that his comments were being recorded by someone not from the police and asks for the recording to be taped over - he comments

    That is the danger - that people will know
    realises what he has said and then states "there are no secrets here"

    Brigadier Adriaan Calitz is the officer who ordered police to open fire on the striking mineworkers. The police had this video but hid it from the Marikana Inquiry.



    The Marikana Inquiry has discovered large amounts of new evidence on police hard drives that had been withheld from the Inquiry and the Inquiry has issued a statement accusing South African police of lying about the tragic incident that cost the lives of 34 striking miners shot and killed at platinum miner Lonmin's Marikana mine, in August last year. The Commission stated that it has discovered that "police falsified or withheld documents and gave false accounts of events".

    http://www.mining.com/breaking-south...na-mine-78312/

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    "That is the danger - that people will know"


    People are such a nuisance in these matters, hey?

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    Sloppy. The British army would not leave videos like that lying around.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    It is possible that the South African police planned to massacre striking mineworkers but this video provides no evidence in that regard. "Execute" has other meanings than carrying out a planned killing.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    It is possible that the South African police planned to massacre striking mineworkers but this video provides no evidence in that regard. "Execute" has other meanings than carrying out a planned killing.
    At about 5.40: He says that it was done in self defence, after a "tactical retreat" and regrouping. He is telling them to tell the truth in the enquiry about how many cartridges were fired.

    The video as a whole is educational from the point of view of how the police plan their operations before a protest or occupation.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    At about 5.40: He says that it was done in self defence, after a "tactical retreat" and regrouping. He is telling them to tell the truth in the enquiry about how many cartridges were fired.

    The video as a whole is educational from the point of view of how the police plan their operations before a protest or occupation.
    Of course it is educational. My only point is that an assertion that you fired on a crowd in self defence is not an admission of a planned massacre. Whether they were justified in opening fire is another question. But getting to the truth of matters is not assisted by people concocting stuff because it suits them.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectabilis View Post
    "That is the danger - that people will know"


    People are such a nuisance in these matters, hey?
    It seemed to me that he was talking about their strategy for the day. It could not refer to an admission of a planned massacre as there was none made.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Of course it is educational. My only point is that an assertion that you fired on a crowd in self defence is not an admission of a planned massacre. Whether they were justified in opening fire is another question. But getting to the truth of matters is not assisted by people concocting stuff because it suits them.
    It does mention which unit/group actually did the firing. I guess it would be their line of command that should be investigated. It is possible someone had decided to make an example and frighten people off striking, but from this video, it is clear that the police ran like **** ("tactical retreat") from the strikers and the officer speaking was most concerned with telling them that the had not really run away. Running when a spear is aimed at the head, he said, was a "tactical retreat".
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Of course it is educational. My only point is that an assertion that you fired on a crowd in self defence is not an admission of a planned massacre. Whether they were justified in opening fire is another question. But getting to the truth of matters is not assisted by people concocting stuff because it suits them.
    Sam - there are time when you deomonstrate that you are one of two things - incapable of understanding simple english - of being a simple sh*t-stirrer.

    Lets be clear what Calitz said - he said that they had a plan - he said that the plan was carried out 110% and he said that the police should be congratulated for their efforts. The plan was that if the striking miners would not disperse when bombarded with tear gas and stun grenades then they would act by advancing into the mass of workers and if they met they would tactically retreat (not run away) and fire in 'self-defence'. This is precisely what happened.

    Now you do not have to accept my claim for these events and what was on this video - the Marikana Inquiry Commission has made the exact same claim - i.e. that the police planned the massacre, that they withheld evidence of this and that they lied to the Commission when giving evidence - and the Commission now has the evidence to prove it.

    It was mass murder of striking mine workers.

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant View Post
    Sam - there are time when you deomonstrate that you are one of two things - incapable of understanding simple english - of being a simple sh*t-stirrer.

    Lets be clear what Calitz said - he said that they had a plan - he said that the plan was carried out 110% and he said that the police should be congratulated for their efforts. The plan was that if the striking miners would not disperse when bombarded with tear gas and stun grenades then they would act by advancing into the mass of workers and if they met they would tactically retreat (not run away) and fire in 'self-defence'. This is precisely what happened.

    Now you do not have to accept my claim for these events and what was on this video - the Marikana Inquiry Commission has made the exact same claim - i.e. that the police planned the massacre, that they withheld evidence of this and that they lied to the Commission when giving evidence - and the Commission now has the evidence to prove it.

    It was mass murder of striking mine workers.
    Is there a report of the tribunal enquiry findings ? Is it online ?

    Nobody is disputing that this was a brutal massacre of mining workers by the police. They are just disputing your interpretation of the words said in the video.

    I had the impression that the "tactical retreat" was a disorderly flight by the cops, because they were in fear of their lives. He recounts the retreat as happening first, and then police moving forward and firing.

    I will listen again and look at the videos.

    and if they met they would tactically retreat (not run away) and fire in 'self-defence'. This is precisely what happened.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    Rough transcript -

    After any big action there is a board enquiry we will give full cooperation. It went exactly how we plan it and its not often that this happen in a large group: we briefed the commander exactly we executed in that line.
    The first contingent, we did the water cannon we did the stun grenade, we did the tear smoke, we did the push back, we tried. When it was ineffective, the guys ran back, neh – on the media they said the police were running away...Yes its true but we call it tactical retreat, we don’t call it running neh, ye, away we tactically retreat with speed why? Because your head or neck cannot take a blow by a bonga or a spear and you have to face the gnada in order to get in there and your action was right, by retreating and going back to your safe haven therefore we got over to the second phase and that is where the PLP line and the NRU line was formed and then they came under attack and that was when the command was given by their commanders to shoot and some of them act in self defence. It was justified.


    He ends by telling them they must tell the truth as ballistic evidence will make liars of them if they dont. At that stage he was aware that press might be recording.

    The statement of the Tribunal says they are examining hard drives, and that new information has been given to them by police that conflicts with what the Evidence Leaders are saying. No mention of videos.

    http://www.marikanacomm.org.za/docs/...s-evidence.pdf
    Last edited by C. Flower; 09-10-2013 at 08:57 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant View Post
    Sam - there are time when you deomonstrate that you are one of two things - incapable of understanding simple english - of being a simple sh*t-stirrer.
    I am quite capable of understanding simple English .. it is you who appears to have a problem in that regard.

    CF has transcribed what was said and readers can draw their own conclusions. I doubt, however, that any rational person will agree with yours.

    The first contingent, we did the water cannon we did the stun grenade, we did the tear smoke, we did the push back, we tried. When it was ineffective, the guys ran back, neh – on the media they said the police were running away...Yes its true but we call it tactical retreat, we don’t call it running neh, ye, away we tactically retreat with speed why? Because your head or neck cannot take a blow by a bonga or a spear and you have to face the gnada in order to get in there and your action was right, by retreating and going back to your safe haven therefore we got over to the second phase and that is where the PLP line and the NRU line was formed and then they came under attack and that was when the command was given by their commanders to shoot and some of them act in self defence. It was justified.
    The sequence he outlines is:

    They used water cannon
    They used stun grenades
    They used tear gas
    They tried to push forward but this was not effective
    The police ran away. It seems clear that this was not planned as he is at pains to reassures the police that they did not do anything wrong and this was in fact a "tactical retreat" for their safety.
    So they formed a PLP line and a NRU line (I'm not sure what these are but I'm thinking they involve guns)
    These lines came under attack and the commanders gave the order to shoot.

    I'm not arguing that this sequence he outlines corresponds to what took place. Neither am I discounting the possibility that there was a plan to shoot miners. I am just pointing out that there is nothing in this video which constitutes evidence that the police planned a massacre. On the contrary, he asserts that they acted in self defence.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant View Post
    Now you do not have to accept my claim for these events and what was on this video - the Marikana Inquiry Commission has made the exact same claim - i.e. that the police planned the massacre, that they withheld evidence of this and that they lied to the Commission when giving evidence - and the Commission now has the evidence to prove it.
    Again, these are assertions on your part which do not correspond to the facts.

    The Marikana Inquiry Commission has made no claim that the police planned the massacre. The commission is still carrying out it's investigation and has not reached any conclusion.

    http://ewn.co.za/2013/10/02/Marikana...deadline-again

    There has been no statement of any sort by the commission as far as I can see about this video.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    further evidence from the Marikana Inquiry -

    Following the Marikana massacre the SAPS held a nine-day conference which the Commission states:
    we have obtained documents which in our opinion demonstrate that the SAPS version of the events at Marikana, as described in the SAPS presentation to this Commission and in the evidence of SAPS witnesses at this Commission, is in material respects not the truth
    Newly found evidence shows the SAPS meeting in Potchefstroom, a nine-day event to prepare for the Commission, was in fact a plan to lie and deceive, which included inventing and doctoring evidence.

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    Default Re: New Evidence - South African Police Planned Marikana Massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant View Post
    further evidence from the Marikana Inquiry -

    Following the Marikana massacre the SAPS held a nine-day conference which the Commission states:


    Newly found evidence shows the SAPS meeting in Potchefstroom, a nine-day event to prepare for the Commission, was in fact a plan to lie and deceive, which included inventing and doctoring evidence.
    There is very short documentary report here - It seems clear that the strikers were highly militant and a challenge to the police, who on the day of the massacre lashed out and fired at them as the miners advanced. The enquiry will also investigate if the police shot some miners in cold blood after that first shooting and whether they planted weapons alongside some dead miners.

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...19877ABCF5F4A1

    Another report that gives a map and timeline. The miners were marching down a hill and were being teargassed when the shooting started.

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...C605B0F6C55627
    Last edited by C. Flower; 13-10-2013 at 04:09 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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