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Thread: REFUGEE CRISIS: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    Another 24 people were plucked out of the sea near Samos this morning. It is thought that their boat also capsized. They were spotted by the Greek coastguard while searching for survivors from yesterdays events. And just to highlight the idocy of politics... The 24 people spotted this morning where in Turkish waters, so instead of just going in and bringing them to safety, the Greek coastguard, less than a mile away from the people in the water, had to call the Turkish coastguard out to do the rescue, because the survivors where just inside Turkish territorial waters and going in would have triggered a full scale military operation as this is seen as an "attack on Turkish/Greek sovereignty". What should have been a matter of minutes was delayed by 2 hours, which is how long it took the Turkish coastguard to reach the spot...
    This ridiculous situation is one of the reasons (not highlighted by the powers that be) why the Aegean is such a favourite spot for people smugglers. They use this political idiocy to gain time and literally play hide and seek behind the many islands dotted around the place to get past both coastguards.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    Italian and Maltese ships have saved 2164 (two thousand one hundred and sixty four)refugees off the coast of Lampedusa. the 12 boats carrying the refugees got into trouble some 160 km from the island, and a masive rescue operation was started. Only on Sunday did the Italian navy save some 600 other refugess, while an Icelandic vesel passing thorugh the waters of the island took 184 others on board. ALL of the refugees came from Libya and set sail to Lampedusa despite the horrendeous wheather that's hitting us at the moment. Shocking...

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    Breaking news on local media: a boat carrying over 400 refugees has sunk of the Italian island. There are reportedly no survivors...
    Scanty information says the ship came from Libya.
    Meanwhile, the EU refuses to re-instate the sea search and rescue units which have saved so many lives until they were abolished last year. We have the same problem here, with many refugees trying to reach Greek islands from Turkey. It is estimated that so far this year some 17,000 refugees have made it to Greek territory. Most of these would be Syrian.

    UPDATE
    There seems to be some serious confusion about this, with some reprots stating that a second ship, carrying over 500 refugees also capsized and sank. Roughly 150 survivors of this ship were picked out of the sea by Italian rescuers, and these survivors related the story of the second ship with no survivors.
    It is also alleged that the rescue vessels were attacked by heavily armed people traffickers in highs speed boats, in an attempt to stop the rescue.
    Last edited by Ephilant; 14-04-2015 at 06:38 PM.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    This is tragic. Reports are saying 400 people died.

    Things in Libya are getting worse all the time. Health services that were the best in Africa have collapsed, there is an oil supply crisis, fighting between militias, an ISIS presence and no government (or two, depending on how you call it). More people will be leaving.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    The latest on this newest tragedy. According to the Italians, there was only 1 ship, carrying over 550 people. It capsized and sank immediately. Some 150 people were rescued, the rest, over 400, drowned. the resucers were indeed attacked by people in highspeed boats, who opened fire on them and those in the water. this is apparently not the first time this happens. On previous occasions they actually managed to get the ship carrying the immigrants back of the rescuers and take it away with them, so they could use it for a repeat performance...

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephilant View Post
    The latest on this newest tragedy. According to the Italians, there was only 1 ship, carrying over 550 people. It capsized and sank immediately. Some 150 people were rescued, the rest, over 400, drowned. the resucers were indeed attacked by people in highspeed boats, who opened fire on them and those in the water. this is apparently not the first time this happens. On previous occasions they actually managed to get the ship carrying the immigrants back of the rescuers and take it away with them, so they could use it for a repeat performance...
    Appalling and horrifying. What is to be done? I was going to say the Italians can't do all the heavy lifting for the whole of the EU.And aid should go to North Africa to avoid these perilous journeys. But - if Libya is disintegrating - that is a non starter. Meanwhile the entire Christian populations of Iraq and Syria seem to be headed West also. So called 'liberal intervention' is a total wash out everywhere it is tried. Sierra Leone is a possible exception.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    This, and the refugee situation in and around Syria is "collateral damage" of NATO and US actions. They just can't leave anyone alone.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    The latest count (over the last 6 days!) makes it clear just how serious this problem is getting. Italy has rescued over 10,000 refugees from the sea during the last 6 days. TEN THOUSAND!
    Of course, Italy has the "advantage" that refugees trying to reach it must do so by sea, so they can keep an accurate count. In Greece we get a lot of refugees trying to reach the islands from Turkey, with thousands more undertaking the rather treacherous Evros crossing. With so many islands dotted around the place, it is not always guaranteed that refugees are intercepted on the island. The Evros crossing (and the crossing in through Bulgaria) is much more difficult to police and patrol. The Greek ministry estimates that monthly anything between 10,000 and 15,000 cross the borders here, and arrive in Greece unaccounted for.
    As I write this, navy vessels and helicopters are being scrambled from Souda to a reported ship full of refugees adrift at the South of our rock. Local radio reports that an s.o.s. was received from a ship reportedly carrying some 600 men,woman and children. Those heading for our shores are mainly Syrians.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    Greece now realises that it must close its borders and regulate the numbers of immigrants it takes in.
    This is usually decried as 'racist' when mentioned in a UK or Irish context but of course it is necessary to maintain a national economy.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Binn Beal View Post
    Greece now realises that it must close its borders and regulate the numbers of immigrants it takes in.
    This is usually decried as 'racist' when mentioned in a UK or Irish context but of course it is necessary to maintain a national economy.
    Not really... We've always been the crossroads between North and South, but also East and West. Which is what made (and makes!) our culture what it is. Culture includes economy... There is not much we can (or should!) do about refugees trying to make it to our shores, other than help them in every way we possibly can. "Regulate" the numbers is simply an impossibility. In most cases, these people are running for their lives. Who are we to slam the door in their faces? This is very much so part of the "cultural" clash between Greece and the rest of Europe. As mentioned elsewhere, the EU condems us for putting through a law that prohibits the repossession and forced sale of a "primary home". It is unheard off in our country to put somebody, Greek or foreigner, out of their home. It is simply not done, not for any reason. On the contrary...
    What Greece and Italy are however realising is that the rest of Europe is not too interested in being a European Union at this level and pull their finger out. Instead of spending on facilities to house the refugees (who will keep coming no matter what!), instead of working on solutions at source, the EU "solves" the problem by assisting the US in bombing the countries of origin out of existence, in ensuring these countires remain unstable, war-torn and unsafe places for their own citizens. Protecting "national interst" don't you know. (Ever notice that "national interest" worth fighting for always seems to be on somebody elses turf?) Collateral damage is what the refugees are, nothing else. And as we all know, "collateral damage" is to be expected and accepted. Just not paid for... The EU "solves" the problem by investing billions in weapons and personel for "Frontex", but refuses to fund "Mare Nostrum" in Italy, or such simple things as the training up of interpreters so that our officials here can at least talk to the arriving refugees. On the other hand, when our government takes on 2 Afghani refugees as interpreters, they get wrapped over the knuckles by the EU for "flaunting" EU immigration rules...(Both men lived here as "illegals" for years and speak the language fluently. We solved the problem by giving them Greek nationality. Much to the disgust of the EU officials who "unearthed" this case...)
    What the EU is proving, without any shadow of doubt, is its inhumanity...
    Last edited by Ephilant; 17-04-2015 at 04:17 AM.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    The flood gates are open, Neither Italy nor Greece have the facilities, infrastructure nor manpower to handle this volume. If the EU does not pull the finger out and start releaving the pressure on those two countries, horrible things will happen. The strain is simply to much for already overstretched systems
    As you rightly have said no country can maintain a national economy and an open-border policy and, though we know the causes of this exodus - the export of bombs and other weapons by the EU/US and the appropriation of natural resources - these powers are not going to do anything about it. Greece started with this new policy of dividing refugees from migrants and with the notion of sending the migrants to other European countries but ultimately a national economy cannot exist with open borders.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Binn Beal View Post
    As you rightly have said no country can maintain a national economy and an open-border policy and, though we know the causes of this exodus - the export of bombs and other weapons by the EU/US and the appropriation of natural resources - these powers are not going to do anything about it. Greece started with this new policy of dividing refugees from migrants and with the notion of sending the migrants to other European countries but ultimately a national economy cannot exist with open borders.
    "As you rightly have said no country can maintain a national economy and an open-border policy..." When did I say that?

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    The flood gates are open, Neither Italy nor Greece have the facilities, infrastructure nor manpower to handle this volume. If the EU does not pull the finger out and start releaving the pressure on those two countries, horrible things will happen. The strain is simply to much for already overstretched systems
    Sorry. That quote is from you and I am agreeing with you that the situation is not sustainable for a single country.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephilant View Post
    Not really... We've always been the crossroads between North and South, but also East and West. Which is what made (and makes!) our culture what it is. Culture includes economy... There is not much we can (or should!) do about refugees trying to make it to our shores, other than help them in every way we possibly can. "Regulate" the numbers is simply an impossibility. In most cases, these people are running for their lives. Who are we to slam the door in their faces? This is very much so part of the "cultural" clash between Greece and the rest of Europe. As mentioned elsewhere, the EU condems us for putting through a law that prohibits the repossession and forced sale of a "primary home". It is unheard off in our country to put somebody, Greek or foreigner, out of their home. It is simply not done, not for any reason. On the contrary...
    What Greece and Italy are however realising is that the rest of Europe is not too interested in being a European Union at this level and pull their finger out. Instead of spending on facilities to house the refugees (who will keep coming no matter what!), instead of working on solutions at source, the EU "solves" the problem by assisting the US in bombing the countries of origin out of existence, in ensuring these countires remain unstable, war-torn and unsafe places for their own citizens. Protecting "national interst" don't you know. (Ever notice that "national interest" worth fighting for always seems to be on somebody elses turf?) Collateral damage is what the refugees are, nothing else. And as we all know, "collateral damage" is to be expected and accepted. Just not paid for... The EU "solves" the problem by investing billions in weapons and personel for "Frontex", but refuses to fund "Mare Nostrum" in Italy, or such simple things as the training up of interpreters so that our officials here can at least talk to the arriving refugees. On the other hand, when our government takes on 2 Afghani refugees as interpreters, they get wrapped over the knuckles by the EU for "flaunting" EU immigration rules...(Both men lived here as "illegals" for years and speak the language fluently. We solved the problem by giving them Greek nationality. Much to the disgust of the EU officials who "unearthed" this case...)
    What the EU is proving, without any shadow of doubt, is its inhumanity...
    Greece has the potential to be a Renaissance style Republic if this government can succeed.

    If it can succeed in staying afloat while getting inward BRIC investment, turning around the economy, and at the same time providing a safe haven for tens of thousands of Refugees it will set an example for the western world.

    Imagine the cultural output all of that would produce.

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Over 300 migrants drowned off Italian island of Lampedusa - granted posthumous citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Greece has the potential to be a Renaissance style Republic if this government can succeed.

    If it can succeed in staying afloat while getting inward BRIC investment, turning around the economy, and at the same time providing a safe haven for tens of thousands of Refugees it will set an example for the western world.

    Imagine the cultural output all of that would produce.
    Indeed, which is why I'm still a bit baffled by the conclusion that somehow I would think that developing a national economy and being an open border country are incompatible. In fact, I think the exact opposite. close the boders and look inward only, and both culture and economy die. North Korea being an extreme example...
    Of course, the influx of refugeees is not a result of an open border policy. It is the result of the actions of those claiming the moral high ground and dictating what we should do with the human consequence of their immorality...

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