Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 65

Thread: Irish Republican Voice

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    66,280

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by Seán Ryan View Post
    The gardaí and their media support group are perfectly capable of ensuring the mass public receive a distorted view of what happened, on their own, they've no earthly reason to either need or to cosy up to fringe groups. The gardaí might like this to be perceived as an issue to do with this group acting in a way that justified the incredible degree of force exercised. But it's not about that at all. It's about a maxim. Garda discretion. They have the power to either ensure that a crime is either prosecuted or ignored. In basic terms, they decide to arrest or not arrest. Force is only legitimately used in defence, that includes the use of handcuffs. I don't care who is on the streets, shouting what, with regard to how I consider the gardaí are bound to treat them. I can judge them myself left to my own devices. The gardaí have no such luxury. The gardaí don't make friends easily, their friend quotas have long been filled. My policy is that if I'm at an event for a special purpose, I keep my politics and beliefs, if it's a separate thing, separate from my doings. If others take a similar approach, I've no problem with them whatsoever. Even if I have a problem with them I'd expect to resolve it elsewhere. Within reason of course...

    I have no reason to doubt that the offshoot group that the paper's referring to, will have to contend with the gardaí and their brutal and cowardly tactics, no more, no less, than any other activist who wants to bring this system to a standstill and set it on another course.
    The "dissident republican" scare is always good to keep people off the streets and to "justify" violence against protestors.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Omnipresent
    Posts
    1,900

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    The "dissident republican" scare is always good to keep people off the streets and to "justify" violence against protestors.
    Agreed. Though, I tend to look at such a matter in a very different way, in a way that further empowers me. By that empowerment, I mean that I do not waste scarce resources.

    For example, the SWP and SP are constantly hoping to wake the sleeping working class and form a mass movement. In a contrary fashion, I look at how easy it is for non-achievers, like Jim Cusack, to justify open barbarity to the sheep, who are not asleep at all and I say to myself: "The sheep are irrelevant." They'll happily fall into line with whatever follows, whether we win or the big boot of capitalism stamps down harder on all of our necks...

    Having said that, I realise that lots of sheep will cast aside their wool and join in the fight against oppression as it begins to weigh down on them even more. But that's hardly something I can control or should seek to control. Indeed, any such action on my part would take from the legitimacy of both the right and the necessity to give up on presenting one's self for a shearing.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    66,280

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by Seán Ryan View Post
    Agreed. Though, I tend to look at such a matter in a very different way, in a way that further empowers me. By that empowerment, I mean that I do not waste scarce resources.

    For example, the SWP and SP are constantly hoping to wake the sleeping working class and form a mass movement. In a contrary fashion, I look at how easy it is for non-achievers, like Jim Cusack, to justify open barbarity to the sheep, who are not asleep at all and I say to myself: "The sheep are irrelevant." They'll happily fall into line with whatever follows, whether we win or the big boot of capitalism stamps down harder on all of our necks...

    Having said that, I realise that lots of sheep will cast aside their wool and join in the fight against oppression as it begins to weigh down on them even more. But that's hardly something I can control or should seek to control. Indeed, any such action on my part would take from the legitimacy of both the right and the necessity to give up on presenting one's self for a shearing.
    Well, not really. We have been told many times on this forum by SP members that nothing will happen until "the mood of the working class changes." They are saying the same thing as you.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Omnipresent
    Posts
    1,900

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Well, not really. We have been told many times on this forum by SP members that nothing will happen until "the mood of the working class changes." They are saying the same thing as you.
    I absolutely disagree. The mood of the brood is irrelevant to me. If and when any of them reach lucidity, it fails to register with me, how it'll influence anything that I'll be doing, that I'm not currently doing.

    I suppose, you could describe me as being very apolitical. I don't care what a mob thinks or whether it can. I don't care to encourage the growth of one, other than advocating the idea that folks should be encouraged to think and act on their own behalves. It is not the capitalist classes or their pets, that I see as being the ultimate problem, it is the masses. They do not act on their own behalves. That's how simple it is. And it's not like they're due any punishment either, for their nature. I don't see the masses in a negative fashion, it's just that I cannot conceive of any positive outcome, by acting to control them, seeing that that is the underlying problem in the first instance.

    I'm nothing like either the SWP or the SP. I'm not waiting for a revolution and I'm not fomenting one, I'm merely acting in a revolution that I see as having started decades ago, from the very first moment I realised that I own me and that other gobshítes thought and acted as if it were otherwise.
    Last edited by Seán Ryan; 24-09-2013 at 11:55 PM.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    in the national interest
    Posts
    16,306

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by fluffybiscuits View Post
    what the ****

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    66,280

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Seán Ryan View Post
    I absolutely disagree. The mood of the brood is irrelevant to me. If and when any of them reach lucidity, it fails to register with me, how it'll influence anything that I'll be doing, that I'm not currently doing.
    "Mood of the brood" - is this an equivalent to "sheeple" ? I disagree with that view. In my experience, people are thoroughly rational and to a large degree aware of their situation, but based on the information they have, and influenced by the media, are at a loss as to how to change it - or think that it is preferable with the out and out battle they know it would take to change it.

    I suppose, you could describe me as being very apolitical.
    I wouldn't describe anyone as apolitical, as we all whether we like it choose either to go along with, or combat to the best of our ability, the status quo.

    I don't care what a mob thinks or whether it can. I don't care to encourage the growth of one, other than advocating the idea that folks should be encouraged to think and act on their own behalves.
    When you say "think on their own behalves" do you mean as individuals? Do you think that people are not capable of organising themselves politically in parties or campaign groups to achieve change? Is that what you mean by "a mob that thinks" ?

    It is not the capitalist classes or their pets, that I see as being the ultimate problem, it is the masses. They do not act on their own behalves. That's how simple it is. And it's not like they're due any punishment either, for their nature. I don't see the masses in a negative fashion, it's just that I cannot conceive of any positive outcome, by acting to control them, seeing that that is the underlying problem in the first instance.
    If you are saying that the SWP and SP try to "act to control" masses of people, I think that is correct. I have observed them repeatedly use populist ideas and opportunist tactics in order to try to do that. And of course the State, with RTE, INM and all the rest acting on their behalf constantly try to do that. That does not mean that people and groups who have studied and developed a grasp of political ideas, programme and tactic with the aim of enabling themselves and many others "to become a class for themselves" - a class acting in its own interests rather than subdued to the interests of the ruling class - should not do so. On the contrary, the barrage of state / status quo propoganda is so intense that it is essential to counteract it, if there is to be any change. And if there is to be change, as many people as possible need to study and consider the alternatives, and develop organisations that can effectively achieve them.

    I'm nothing like either the SWP or the SP. I'm not waiting for a revolution and I'm not fomenting one, I'm merely acting in a revolution that I see as having started decades ago, from the very first moment I realised that I own me and that other gobshítes thought and acted as if it were otherwise.
    The SWP and SP, judging on the last five years, are also doing neither of those things. They are seeking to build organisations in which the prospect of revolution is abstract and distant and is used as a bait. But an individual without an organisation can do very little in terms of revolution, unless you are talking about personal development of the internal kind by one person. But if you didn't believe that it is important to share your ideas and influence other peoples' thinking, why would you be here sharing yours?

    And do you really own you? 100%? At the moment we are pretty comprehensively owned by others and have very little alternative to living either by working for others who make money from our work or living under the restrictions and limits of state employment or benefits, while a small unaccountable and privileged caste makes the big decisions.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 25-09-2013 at 06:35 AM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    66,280

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. FIVE View Post
    what the ****
    Humour.

    This is one of the images -

    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,398

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    There was a bunch of these people leafletting outside Trinity yesterday afternoon.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    66,280

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    Is this all a reaction to Sinn Fein's strong showing in the polls? With the ULA gone, there is no one else for the establishment to worry about at present.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Omnipresent
    Posts
    1,900

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    [QUOTE=C. Flower;354695]

    "Mood of the brood" - is this an equivalent to "sheeple" ? I disagree with that view. In my experience, people are thoroughly rational and to a large degree aware of their situation, but based on the information they have, and influenced by the media, are at a loss as to how to change it - or think that it is preferable with the out and out battle they know it would take to change it.
    There's a whole lot of stuff that's worthy of consideration in that little paragraph Cass. Most of it, when considered, extrapolates into a mass of information and further questions.

    Individuals are thoroughly rational and are aware of their situations. That does not extrapolate to the masses, at all. Indeed, the individual situations, in order to extrapolate them to some concept to fit the masses, must be massively simplified if not outrightly altered, to fit some abstract concept of the masses. One is thirsty, another is hungry, another hasn't shelter, one has bad health, yet another cannot find respite from an abusive spouse, etc. In just communicating with the small crowd that I'm imagining, I must use some abstract concept to describe the multitude of issues. Or else we're going to be spending a lot of valuable time discussing individual needs. And I'm going to have to add another need to my own list of needs, earplugs. Thus the needs of the masses must remain an abstract, whilst some goal, that is not an abstract, must be outlined and achieved that will satiate these needs. The problem being that the very clear goal, is only a solution to the abstract problem. When one considers the fact that it's quite unlikely the abstract version of needs will mirror exactly the needs of any one individual, one sees that we're in a lot of trouble, when we attempt to suggest that organising and directing the masses can sort out all that ails us. Indeed, I see such an assertion as being complete bs that stands proudly amongst the best of conspiracy theories.

    I wouldn't describe anyone as apolitical, as we all whether we like it choose either to go along with, or combat to the best of our ability, the status quo.
    I'd describe myself as apolitical, though not in absolutist terms. I've have no respect, whatsoever, for the vote, that somehow exists without my consent. I do not believe the masses are capable of arriving at the right answer to any question put to them, excepting pure chance. However, individuals are very capable of understanding complexity and they quite regularly come up with correct answers. Chance plays into everything, but in this instance it plays a much lesser part.

    I see democracy as only beginning to function when every individual who can vote, has agreed to abide by the outcome. I don't see a functional democracy anywhere on the planet. And I've yet to see one, at any level, that I'd even consider joining. Following the status quo is as apolitical as you can get, in many ways. That it falls right into the hands of manipulators and politicians, is what makes it political. But it's not rational.

    When you say "think on their own behalves" do you mean as individuals? Do you think that people are not capable of organising themselves politically in parties or campaign groups to achieve change? Is that what you mean by "a mob that thinks" ?
    Yup, I'm referring to individuals. Folks are very capable of organising themselves into lines, to get the dole, to hand out cash to see the latest turd from Hollywood, to chant "Baa Baa Baa" at some scumbag in the Dáil, to chant "Baa Baa Baa" at someone saying something soothing that they like through a megaphone. But they'll not be composing fine music, discovering new mathematical properties. The masses are stupid. They are easily led. They're just as easily bored. They're the reason that comedians are some of the most depressed people on the planet. The masses are not in any way like some supersized and supercharged individual that you can have a fulfilling relationship with. They're fickle and they're driven by primordial stimulii.

    That said, of course individuals can organise themselves to achieve goals. But imo, that organisation should only exist to achieve stated goals and it should have no other function or significance. Short of acting as a pool to facilitate individuals getting to know each other and aid in the organising of other groups for other functions. But the one group that fits all malarky, as promoted by the SP and others, is pure and utter bunkum. And on its own, is enough to ensure that we'll be at each others' throats for eternity.

    I don't believe that a mob thinks. I think a mob has purpose and that it can react, in a mechanical way, moreso than a considered way, unless the reaction is pre-programmed.

    If you are saying that the SWP and SP try to "act to control" masses of people, I think that is correct. I have observed them repeatedly use populist ideas and opportunist tactics in order to try to do that. And of course the State, with RTE, INM and all the rest acting on their behalf constantly try to do that. That does not mean that people and groups who have studied and developed a grasp of political ideas, programme and tactic with the aim of enabling themselves and many others "to become a class for themselves" - a class acting in its own interests rather than subdued to the interests of the ruling class - should not do so. On the contrary, the barrage of state / status quo propoganda is so intense that it is essential to counteract it, if there is to be any change. And if there is to be change, as many people as possible need to study and consider the alternatives, and develop organisations that can effectively achieve them.
    I see sense in what you're saying. Particularly so, since you use the plural of "organisation." But there is no lasting solution in what you say. A crowd taking care of business is fine, and is as it should be. But the same crowd, having taken care of business, seeks to be representative of what's left and indeed the next generation. Then that crowd becomes the next status quo and it needs neutralising. And on and on we go. All these crowd based solutions are focussed on specifics in time, even if their needs are massively abstracted, the goal or goals tend to be clear and concise. In other words, not a single solution can be advocated as having merit any length of time into the future, indeed, the further into the future one seeks to project these solutions, the less their efficacy.

    The SWP and SP, judging on the last five years, are also doing neither of those things. They are seeking to build organisations in which the prospect of revolution is abstract and distant and is used as a bait. But an individual without an organisation can do very little in terms of revolution, unless you are talking about personal development of the internal kind by one person. But if you didn't believe that it is important to share your ideas and influence other peoples' thinking, why would you be here sharing yours?

    And do you really own you? 100%? At the moment we are pretty comprehensively owned by others and have very little alternative to living either by working for others who make money from our work or living under the restrictions and limits of state employment or benefits, while a small unaccountable and privileged caste makes the big decisions.
    I often challenge both parties on just that. Yes their revolution is but bait. Nonetheless, one can become bogged down as to whether they're using the word merely as an adjective. My point is, that even if they are what it says on the label, they are nothing more than a problem that will need solving in the future. That is not to say that I'll not work with them to achieve common goals, I will. But I'll blow the head straight off the first one of them who demands my obedience beyond our shared objectives.

    I disagree with what you say of the individual in terms of revolution. Without individuals, there can be no masses and there can be no revolutions. A thousand individuals organise into a group to revolt against the system. Another thousand individuals decide to act independently to break the system. Both are revolutions. My money's on the second group, even though they are not a group per se. The first group is no smarter or resourceful than it's leadership. The second group, on the other hand, can maximise on the big brains and other individualistic gifts that evolution has bestowed on them.

    Why am I here? Well in this instance, I'm shooting the breeze with my buddy

    But, I also get to yank chains. I get information and education and I'd like to think that I respond in kind. But that doesn't begin to contradict what I'm saying about the masses and current conceptualisations of revolution. I seek that individuals think and act of their own volition. And if they agree with me on how I see the State, that's fine. If they don't that's fine too. If they want to work with me to achieve common goals that'd be great. But I don't for a moment want to be in a position where I dictate goals and objectives. To me, that'd be an abomination of all my beliefs and everything I work towards. I don't seek a mob relationship. If individual relationships arise that'll be excellent. But it's not my goal, nor anywhere close to it.

    I own me 100%. I've already conceded that others disagree. But just because the masses disagree, doesn't make them right. It doesn't even establish a claim.

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Baile Átha Cliath
    Posts
    3,776

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Is this all a reaction to Sinn Fein's strong showing in the polls? With the ULA gone, there is no one else for the establishment to worry about at present.
    Could you elaborate on this, I don't quite follow - you mean the media coverage? Or are you saying that they are a black op of some kind? (Many have questioned how they could afford so many flags and banners so quickly when established groups can struggle).
    The United Irishman. Updated 5/2/14

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    66,280

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    Could you elaborate on this, I don't quite follow - you mean the media coverage? Or are you saying that they are a black op of some kind? (Many have questioned how they could afford so many flags and banners so quickly when established groups can struggle).
    I don't know if they are or are not. Posts here about their background suggested perhaps so, but it is never an assumption that I would make unless I knew the group myself. It would be an easy way of discrediting genuine people.

    Certainly, this kind of activist in-your-face group, and a lot of press about unruly dissidents might have the effect of scaring off some people thinking of voting SF for the first time.

    But they could be perfectly genuine. Many people myself included thought blocking traffic for a protest was perfectly reasonable under the circumstances we are in.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    1,318

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    [QUOTE=Seán Ryan;354748]
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post

    There's a whole lot of stuff that's worthy of consideration in that little paragraph Cass. Most of it, when considered, extrapolates into a mass of information and further questions.

    Individuals are thoroughly rational and are aware of their situations. That does not extrapolate to the masses, at all. Indeed, the individual situations, in order to extrapolate them to some concept to fit the masses, must be massively simplified if not outrightly altered, to fit some abstract concept of the masses. One is thirsty, another is hungry, another hasn't shelter, one has bad health, yet another cannot find respite from an abusive spouse, etc. In just communicating with the small crowd that I'm imagining, I must use some abstract concept to describe the multitude of issues. Or else we're going to be spending a lot of valuable time discussing individual needs. And I'm going to have to add another need to my own list of needs, earplugs. Thus the needs of the masses must remain an abstract, whilst some goal, that is not an abstract, must be outlined and achieved that will satiate these needs. The problem being that the very clear goal, is only a solution to the abstract problem. When one considers the fact that it's quite unlikely the abstract version of needs will mirror exactly the needs of any one individual, one sees that we're in a lot of trouble, when we attempt to suggest that organising and directing the masses can sort out all that ails us. Indeed, I see such an assertion as being complete bs that stands proudly amongst the best of conspiracy theories.



    I'd describe myself as apolitical, though not in absolutist terms. I've have no respect, whatsoever, for the vote, that somehow exists without my consent. I do not believe the masses are capable of arriving at the right answer to any question put to them, excepting pure chance. However, individuals are very capable of understanding complexity and they quite regularly come up with correct answers. Chance plays into everything, but in this instance it plays a much lesser part.

    I see democracy as only beginning to function when every individual who can vote, has agreed to abide by the outcome. I don't see a functional democracy anywhere on the planet. And I've yet to see one, at any level, that I'd even consider joining. Following the status quo is as apolitical as you can get, in many ways. That it falls right into the hands of manipulators and politicians, is what makes it political. But it's not rational.



    Yup, I'm referring to individuals. Folks are very capable of organising themselves into lines, to get the dole, to hand out cash to see the latest turd from Hollywood, to chant "Baa Baa Baa" at some scumbag in the Dáil, to chant "Baa Baa Baa" at someone saying something soothing that they like through a megaphone. But they'll not be composing fine music, discovering new mathematical properties. The masses are stupid. They are easily led. They're just as easily bored. They're the reason that comedians are some of the most depressed people on the planet. The masses are not in any way like some supersized and supercharged individual that you can have a fulfilling relationship with. They're fickle and they're driven by primordial stimulii.

    That said, of course individuals can organise themselves to achieve goals. But imo, that organisation should only exist to achieve stated goals and it should have no other function or significance. Short of acting as a pool to facilitate individuals getting to know each other and aid in the organising of other groups for other functions. But the one group that fits all malarky, as promoted by the SP and others, is pure and utter bunkum. And on its own, is enough to ensure that we'll be at each others' throats for eternity.

    I don't believe that a mob thinks. I think a mob has purpose and that it can react, in a mechanical way, moreso than a considered way, unless the reaction is pre-programmed.



    I see sense in what you're saying. Particularly so, since you use the plural of "organisation." But there is no lasting solution in what you say. A crowd taking care of business is fine, and is as it should be. But the same crowd, having taken care of business, seeks to be representative of what's left and indeed the next generation. Then that crowd becomes the next status quo and it needs neutralising. And on and on we go. All these crowd based solutions are focussed on specifics in time, even if their needs are massively abstracted, the goal or goals tend to be clear and concise. In other words, not a single solution can be advocated as having merit any length of time into the future, indeed, the further into the future one seeks to project these solutions, the less their efficacy.



    I often challenge both parties on just that. Yes their revolution is but bait. Nonetheless, one can become bogged down as to whether they're using the word merely as an adjective. My point is, that even if they are what it says on the label, they are nothing more than a problem that will need solving in the future. That is not to say that I'll not work with them to achieve common goals, I will. But I'll blow the head straight off the first one of them who demands my obedience beyond our shared objectives.

    I disagree with what you say of the individual in terms of revolution. Without individuals, there can be no masses and there can be no revolutions. A thousand individuals organise into a group to revolt against the system. Another thousand individuals decide to act independently to break the system. Both are revolutions. My money's on the second group, even though they are not a group per se. The first group is no smarter or resourceful than it's leadership. The second group, on the other hand, can maximise on the big brains and other individualistic gifts that evolution has bestowed on them.

    Why am I here? Well in this instance, I'm shooting the breeze with my buddy

    But, I also get to yank chains. I get information and education and I'd like to think that I respond in kind. But that doesn't begin to contradict what I'm saying about the masses and current conceptualisations of revolution. I seek that individuals think and act of their own volition. And if they agree with me on how I see the State, that's fine. If they don't that's fine too. If they want to work with me to achieve common goals that'd be great. But I don't for a moment want to be in a position where I dictate goals and objectives. To me, that'd be an abomination of all my beliefs and everything I work towards. I don't seek a mob relationship. If individual relationships arise that'll be excellent. But it's not my goal, nor anywhere close to it.

    I own me 100%. I've already conceded that others disagree. But just because the masses disagree, doesn't make them right. It doesn't even establish a claim.
    Enjoyed that cool breeze as it moved back and forth

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    in the national interest
    Posts
    16,306

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    was it these guys today shouting and heckling during every speaker at the pensioners thing?

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Rockall
    Posts
    66,280

    Default Re: Irish Republican Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. FIVE View Post
    was it these guys today shouting and heckling during every speaker at the pensioners thing?
    Lots of green flags ? There are some youtubes here showing them. Did you get a look at them ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Share us
Follow Us