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Thread: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    ... With the increase in Irish speaking schools more and more young people are becoming fluent in the language.
    I would like to read the statistical research to support this claim.

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    lá an lúbáin is quite correct. that post is the best example of the most contradictory mindset that ive read in a long time. Simonsays... you ramble about everything, you accuse him/her of being 'top down' in mentality towards the language while FG have done nothing but undermine an gaeilge every time theyve been in power.

    Language Management is a reality in many places around the world, Quebec, Catalonia, Switzerland, the Basque Country, Flanders (and Belguim as a whole) New Zealand, Hawaii, Brittany, Bavaria, parts of Italy, the list is endless to be honest. But in Ireland we have, as a symptom of our corrupt system, an inept bunch of lads dictating policy.

    People complain about the government doing anything for our cultural heritage, but we still have the situation whereby gaelscoileanna are ONLY formed by parents getting together, taking their free time and actually lobbying for their creation... wtf is that about.... no state pro-active policy but rather 'we'll just leave it to people to go and spend their time in doing something that the state could quite easily do'. Sad and ridiculous.

    Homer, thanks, we're launching in 10 days time, but you'll need a smartphone to get the app.....


    Holly.. heres a graph showing the growth in gaelscoileanna over the last 40 years, just o allay your fears

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    lá an lúbáin is quite correct. that post is the best example of the most contradictory mindset that ive read in a long time. Simonsays... you ramble about everything, you accuse him/her of being 'top down' in mentality towards the language while FG have done nothing but undermine an gaeilge every time theyve been in power.

    Language Management is a reality in many places around the world, Quebec, Catalonia, Switzerland, the Basque Country, Flanders (and Belguim as a whole) New Zealand, Hawaii, Brittany, Bavaria, parts of Italy, the list is endless to be honest. But in Ireland we have, as a symptom of our corrupt system, an inept bunch of lads dictating policy.

    People complain about the government doing anything for our cultural heritage, but we still have the situation whereby gaelscoileanna are ONLY formed by parents getting together, taking their free time and actually lobbying for their creation... wtf is that about.... no state pro-active policy but rather 'we'll just leave it to people to go and spend their time in doing something that the state could quite easily do'. Sad and ridiculous.

    Homer, thanks, we're launching in 10 days time, but you'll need a smartphone to get the app.....


    Holly.. heres a graph showing the growth in gaelscoileanna over the last 40 years, just o allay your fears
    Bavaria? Bavaria is a place where German is, to the best of my knowledge, the only language. If you want to illustrate Germany´s approach to managing minority languages, then the fate of Sorbish makes for alarming reading.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

    Sorbish is actually a language, "Bayerisch" a dialect. Unless you are referring to what the Sudetendeutsch in Bavaria speak, which is, again, a dialect.

    Thanks for the graph illustrating the growth of the Gaelscoileanna. It is encouraging but the fact that this was and remains a parents initiative underlines the failure of the state in its remit. 90 years of stale thinking, a culture of failure, millions thrown at the problem, jobs for the boys in Udaras and Radio na Gaelteachta and so on is a miserable legacy of incurable ineptitude. Maybe the Department of the Gaelteacht should be simply abolished and the resources given to the people in the Gaelscoileanna movement who seem to know what they are doing.

    I have often wondered about the success in Wales in the protection and promotion of the Welsh language and the relative failure of a similar movement in Scotland. I believe some of this may be down to the aspiration of Scottish independence expressed politically is a real possibility whereas Welsh independence is a non-starter politically. A Welsh acquaintance described to me the expression of differentiation found its place in learning Welsh rather than in political agitation.

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    Bavaria? Bavaria is a place where German is, to the best of my knowledge, the only language. If you want to illustrate Germany´s approach to managing minority languages, then the fate of Sorbish makes for alarming reading.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs


    Slim Buddha



    Sorbish is actually a language, "Bayerisch" a dialect. Unless you are referring to what the Sudetendeutsch in Bavaria speak, which is, again, a dialect.

    Thanks for the graph illustrating the growth of the Gaelscoileanna. It is encouraging but the fact that this was and remains a parents initiative underlines the failure of the state in its remit. 90 years of stale thinking, a culture of failure, millions thrown at the problem, jobs for the boys in Udaras and Radio na Gaelteachta and so on is a miserable legacy of incurable ineptitude. Maybe the Department of the Gaelteacht should be simply abolished and the resources given to the people in the Gaelscoileanna movement who seem to know what they are doing.

    I have often wondered about the success in Wales in the protection and promotion of the Welsh language and the relative failure of a similar movement in Scotland. I believe some of this may be down to the aspiration of Scottish independence expressed politically is a real possibility whereas Welsh independence is a non-starter politically. A Welsh acquaintance described to me the expression of differentiation found its place in learning Welsh rather than in political agitation.
    SB

    Interested in your reference to Sorbian. First became aware of it three years ago when visiting Berlin, and discussing the position of Irish here. The Sorbians have had a lot of interference political and otherwise during Germany's and Poland's turbulent history. Hope they and their language survive.

    Spent another pleasant holiday in Berlin recently. Didn't get a chance to check on Sorbian - too busy trying to learn some German. Have a daughter working there

    Living in Ireland we often think that English is and will be all pervasive. German still holding it's own.

    Re Irish generally, hope Ogiol's new electronic fáinne scheme works.

    No too sure about the Gaelscoileanna. Some parents are sending children there for elitist reasons, e.g smaller classes, unlikely to be children of travellers or immigrants there etc.

    In the fifties my National School ( CBS ) used a lot of Irish, my secondary school also taught a lot thru Irish. UCG in those days also ran a lot it's courses thru Irish. At PPU functions find that few outside education use or are interested in Irish. Go figure

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by homer View Post
    SB

    Interested in your reference to Sorbian. First became aware of it three years ago when visiting Berlin, and discussing the position of Irish here. The Sorbians have had a lot of interference political and otherwise during Germany's and Poland's turbulent history. Hope they and their language survive.

    Spent another pleasant holiday in Berlin recently. Didn't get a chance to check on Sorbian - too busy trying to learn some German. Have a daughter working there

    Living in Ireland we often think that English is and will be all pervasive. German still holding it's own.

    Re Irish generally, hope Ogiol's new electronic fáinne scheme works.

    No too sure about the Gaelscoileanna. Some parents are sending children there for elitist reasons, e.g smaller classes, unlikely to be children of travellers or immigrants there etc.

    In the fifties my National School ( CBS ) used a lot of Irish, my secondary school also taught a lot thru Irish. UCG in those days also ran a lot it's courses thru Irish. At PPU functions find that few outside education use or are interested in Irish. Go figure
    When I lived in Berlin in the 1990s, I often went with my then girlfriend to the Spreewald and drove around Cottbus, Spremberg and Weisswasser. I was fascinated that an ethnic minority, and a Slav one at that, has existed inside Germany for 1400 years. The dual language signs confused me at first because I thought I had unwittingly driven into Poland by mistake on some sort of unapproved road. Then I found out about the Sorbs. I, too, hope their language and culture survives.

    German is more than holding its own. It is the most spoken language in the EU and is a language one needs if one is doing business in Hungary, Slovakia, Poland and the Czech Republic. The further east you go,the more irrelevant English becomes. I do quite a bit of business in Ukraine and English is virtually unknown there. That is changing but if you cannot speak rudimentary Russian, don´t bother going there.

    We over-estimate the "all-mighty" presence of English and think it is for others to learn English because "everybody speaks English". No, everybody does not speak English and in Kiev,for example, speaking English is like having a sign on your forehead saying "please rip me off!". Don´t get me wrong. English is very important in business but to actually close deals in eastern Europe and parts of the former Soviet Union, more is needed. My son speaks fluent English and German and I am saying to him that he would greatly enhance his chances in business by having a working knowledge of Russian. I firmly believe that to understand the culture of a country, not just in business, a solid acquaintance of its language is a pre-requisite.

    As for Irish, once again, the last 90 years were a textbook illustration of "how not to do it". The people charged with protecting and promoting it were inept, controlling and visionless. I just hope that we can find a way to reverse the trend and preserve what we have and build upon it. One thing that would immediately help is to stop the tendency of those with a good facility for the language and who can do something to positively promote it talking down to the rest of us. I always felt that there was something sneering and snide in the attitude of the fanatics in their treatment of those less fanatical about Irish, as if the rest of us were somehow less Irish because of our shortcomings in Gaelige. It is ********, I know, but it seemed important to them.

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    As for Irish, once again, the last 90 years were a textbook illustration of "how not to do it". The people charged with protecting and promoting it were inept, controlling and visionless.
    I couldn't agree more. Half-assed as I said before. If you're going pull on the ball, don't be going in half-hearted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    I just hope that we can find a way to reverse the trend and preserve what we have and build upon it.
    We can. But to ignore and belittle the rights of Irish speakers and treat the language as some sort of annex that occasionally needs a lick of paint is not the way to go about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    One thing that would immediately help is to stop the tendency of those with a good facility for the language and who can do something to positively promote it talking down to the rest of us.
    Who are these people that are talking down? Give me an example, and don't say me because that's just lazy. All I see is a anecdotal denigration of Irish speakers in the mainstream media and officialdom. That other galoot on this thread is whinging about the 'fanatics' complaining about fadas being left out of their names. Well, How would you feel if every time you spelt your name or your son's or wife's name out for someone in a public body, that they sigh , and tell you 'Computer says no'. How about having to ring the HSE on four occasions to get them to spell your son's name correctly? Ever try getting your name spelt correctly on a bank card? Try telling a clerk that there's no apostrophe in your name. People telling you that they don't do addresses in Irish. Pressing '5' for the 'as Gaeilge' option and being told that 'sorry, all our Irish speaking operators are busy'. And you complain about being talked down to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    I always felt that there was something sneering and snide in the attitude of the fanatics in their treatment of those less fanatical about Irish, as if the rest of us were somehow less Irish because of our shortcomings in Gaelige.
    And again , not only the labeling of Irish speakers as fanatics(Incidentally,Are there any Irish speakers that are not 'fanatics'?), but there's something 'sneering' about them. Listening to that same cliched 5hite about the language and it's speakers ,day in , day out, will do that to a body. For too long, Irish speakers have been treated like Chinese take-away staff at two in the morning , with jokes like the Heineken ad equivalent to shouting 'Chicken Flied Lice' . Hilarious stuff. Stupid, hackneyed and simply racist attitudes have prevailed in our own country. Try and stand up to those attitudes, like I have on this thread and what do you get? The exact same.

    This superiority thing that Irish speakers are supposed to have is another fallacy. I've never felt superior because I can speak Irish or felt that anyone else is less Irish because they can't speak the language. In fact, I think that is classic transferal. Because they can't speak the language , the people who can are somehow a shower of youknowhats. It sounds like teenage girl bitchiness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    It is ********, I know, but it seemed important to them.
    You seem like a reasonable poster on other subjects but on this you to let 'na maidí rámha leis an sruth' (the oars go with the stream)

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    I just threw bavaria in there on the back of a conversation with someone from there while i was in the region recently. He was adamant that he had to learn german and as such what he writes and speaks diverge so much that he considers it a different language. Also, hes part of a group who promote 'bavarian' and its introduction into schools. Anyway, Im not an expert on central or eastern europe by a long shot, maybe Frisian would have been a better example, or sorbian, as you rightly point out. However, we could look further afield, Amazic in Morrocco, Aymara and Quichua in South america, etc, etc.

    To be fair, yes Irish language management is rubbish, but the fact remains that we lost a golden opportunity when the free state was formed. The finns, for example, grasped that opportunity and look where they are now. Since then everything has been ad hoc, unlike the examples i mentioned, where the language is micro-managed, leading to a greater societal undertanding of the 'minority' language and thus a far greater possibility to thrive. We need a proper language management body (scrap the rest), with university postgrad and masters' (as is the case in other countries) educated professionals working in it, and not the ''party lads''.

    I also agree that english as the be all end all is terribly overestimated. It is the second most spoken language in the world, but in european terms, only a very small percentage of people ouside Ireland and Britain have even passable english. They also have their own languages. However, most Irish people's world view does not extend beyond Britain, the US and the costa del sol in summer.

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    When I lived in Berlin in the 1990s, I often went with my then girlfriend to the Spreewald and drove around Cottbus, Spremberg and Weisswasser. I was fascinated that an ethnic minority, and a Slav one at that, has existed inside Germany for 1400 years. The dual language signs confused me at first because I thought I had unwittingly driven into Poland by mistake on some sort of unapproved road. Then I found out about the Sorbs. I, too, hope their language and culture survives.

    German is more than holding its own. It is the most spoken language in the EU and is a language one needs if one is doing business in Hungary, Slovakia, Poland and the Czech Republic. The further east you go,the more irrelevant English becomes. I do quite a bit of business in Ukraine and English is virtually unknown there. That is changing but if you cannot speak rudimentary Russian, don´t bother going there.

    We over-estimate the "all-mighty" presence of English and think it is for others to learn English because "everybody speaks English". No, everybody does not speak English and in Kiev,for example, speaking English is like having a sign on your forehead saying "please rip me off!". Don´t get me wrong. English is very important in business but to actually close deals in eastern Europe and parts of the former Soviet Union, more is needed. My son speaks fluent English and German and I am saying to him that he would greatly enhance his chances in business by having a working knowledge of Russian. I firmly believe that to understand the culture of a country, not just in business, a solid acquaintance of its language is a pre-requisite.

    As for Irish, once again, the last 90 years were a textbook illustration of "how not to do it". The people charged with protecting and promoting it were inept, controlling and visionless. I just hope that we can find a way to reverse the trend and preserve what we have and build upon it. One thing that would immediately help is to stop the tendency of those with a good facility for the language and who can do something to positively promote it talking down to the rest of us. I always felt that there was something sneering and snide in the attitude of the fanatics in their treatment of those less fanatical about Irish, as if the rest of us were somehow less Irish because of our shortcomings in Gaelige. It is ********, I know, but it seemed important to them.
    Agree with you SB. That has been my daughter's experience also working as an architect. She had LC German, but took special lessons to catch up.

    I had no formal German lessons, and am just above the "cúpla focail" standard. I find Germans appreciate your making the effort to speak it, unlike some of the ueber-Gaeilgeoirí regarding Irish.

    I do hope the powers that be, and the language movement, change to the voluntary way

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by homer View Post
    Agree with you SB. That has been my daughter's experience also working as an architect. She had LC German, but took special lessons to catch up.

    I had no formal German lessons, and am just above the "cúpla focail" standard. I find Germans appreciate your making the effort to speak it, unlike some of the ueber-Gaeilgeoirí regarding Irish.

    I do hope the powers that be, and the language movement, change to the voluntary way
    In this I have to disagree. Our problem, as I perceive it, is that the approach so far has been utterly unprofessional and half-arsed. We need to study language interaction and professionalise the management of Irish and English.

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    In this I have to disagree. Our problem, as I perceive it, is that the approach so far has been utterly unprofessional and half-arsed. We need to study language interaction and professionalise the management of Irish and English.
    A Irish language activist was trying to take a case to ensure Irish language labelling on medicines as per EU directives. So , before the case was to come before the courts again, the Department of Health, at the urging of the Pharmaceutical companies, wrote to the EU , on the Pharmaceutical companies' behalf , to have the directive changed so that they wouldn't have to label in both languages. Not only half assed but actively campaigning against Irish speakers' rights.

    http://www.beo.ie/alt-teanga-gan-lip...an-stadas.aspx
    Last edited by Lá an Lúbáin; 16-06-2013 at 01:10 PM.

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    In this I have to disagree. Our problem, as I perceive it, is that the approach so far has been utterly unprofessional and half-arsed. We need to study language interaction and professionalise the management of Irish and English.
    1. OK - an example is a county council about 30+ years which decided to run some of it's meetings thru Irish. In the spirit of that some of the engineers wrote their reports on projects in Irish. They would not have had any training in Irish since their Leaving Cert. A councillor who was a teacher criticised the standard of Irish and their grammar, publicly, at the meeting. Result - end of experiment.

    2. I am also aware, as SS is, of cases where children were sent home from summer Gaeltacht courses for speaking English. As SS says, one sentence in English led to expulsion. Result - often, another child, and indeed family turned off Irish.

    3 I have a high opinion of Ó'Cuív but I think it was OTT to gaelicise many place names. e.g Dingle to Daingean Uí Chúis. The reguirement for Irish versions of all public documents is in many cases a waste of money. I know of cases where apart from myself nobody ever asked for the Irish version

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by homer View Post
    1. OK - an example is a county council about 30+ years which decided to run some of it's meetings thru Irish. In the spirit of that some of the engineers wrote their reports on projects in Irish. They would not have had any training in Irish since their Leaving Cert. A councillor who was a teacher criticised the standard of Irish and their grammar, publicly, at the meeting. Result - end of experiment.

    2. I am also aware, as SS is, of cases where children were sent home from summer Gaeltacht courses for speaking English. As SS says, one sentence in English led to expulsion. Result - often, another child, and indeed family turned off Irish.

    3 I have a high opinion of Ó'Cuív but I think it was OTT to gaelicise many place names. e.g Dingle to Daingean Uí Chúis. The reguirement for Irish versions of all public documents is in many cases a waste of money
    1 is a very sad situation. But once again an ad hoc approach rather than a legalistic rights based one.

    2 an exception to the 10s of thousands of children who went and go to Irish summer camps. A miniscule percentage to be completely honest.

    3. Once again, this is a language rights issue. An Daingean has not been gaelicised, but rather the opposite. Can we not take an approach whereby we realise the cultural heritage of the Irish language and its value to everyone (the state as a representation of the common good) and also the need for Irish to be treated equally by the state as in a special protection issue. Remember, irish speakers have been and are stigmatised by the state for decades. No one is asking anyone to impose Irish on anyone, but rather to grant the right of irish speakers to have equal access to the state, in all its forms, in their language.

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    1 is a very sad situation. But once again an ad hoc approach rather than a legalistic rights based one.

    2 an exception to the 10s of thousands of children who went and go to Irish summer camps. A miniscule percentage to be completely honest.

    3. Once again, this is a language rights issue. An Daingean has not been gaelicised, but rather the opposite. Can we not take an approach whereby we realise the cultural heritage of the Irish language and its value to everyone (the state as a representation of the common good) and also the need for Irish to be treated equally by the state as in a special protection issue. Remember, irish speakers have been and are stigmatised by the state for decades. No one is asking anyone to impose Irish on anyone, but rather to grant the right of irish speakers to have equal access to the state, in all its forms, in their language.
    1. As a lawyer all my life, with an interest in promoting Irish, I do not believe a legalistic rights based approach is the way to go. Will just be used as an excuse for litigation.

    2. I think if even one child was sent home from a Coláiste Samhraidh for speaking sentence in Irish it was wrong.

    3. I think in the Dingle/DAingean Uí Chúis the cultural heritage case was carried too far. As far as I recall this was done against the wishes of many of the residents there.

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lá an Lúbáin View Post
    I couldn't agree more. Half-assed as I said before. If you're going pull on the ball, don't be going in half-hearted.



    We can. But to ignore and belittle the rights of Irish speakers and treat the language as some sort of annex that occasionally needs a lick of paint is not the way to go about it.



    Who are these people that are talking down? Give me an example, and don't say me because that's just lazy. All I see is a anecdotal denigration of Irish speakers in the mainstream media and officialdom. That other galoot on this thread is whinging about the 'fanatics' complaining about fadas being left out of their names. Well, How would you feel if every time you spelt your name or your son's or wife's name out for someone in a public body, that they sigh , and tell you 'Computer says no'. How about having to ring the HSE on four occasions to get them to spell your son's name correctly? Ever try getting your name spelt correctly on a bank card? Try telling a clerk that there's no apostrophe in your name. People telling you that they don't do addresses in Irish. Pressing '5' for the 'as Gaeilge' option and being told that 'sorry, all our Irish speaking operators are busy'. And you complain about being talked down to.



    And again , not only the labeling of Irish speakers as fanatics(Incidentally,Are there any Irish speakers that are not 'fanatics'?), but there's something 'sneering' about them. Listening to that same cliched 5hite about the language and it's speakers ,day in , day out, will do that to a body. For too long, Irish speakers have been treated like Chinese take-away staff at two in the morning , with jokes like the Heineken ad equivalent to shouting 'Chicken Flied Lice' . Hilarious stuff. Stupid, hackneyed and simply racist attitudes have prevailed in our own country. Try and stand up to those attitudes, like I have on this thread and what do you get? The exact same.

    This superiority thing that Irish speakers are supposed to have is another fallacy. I've never felt superior because I can speak Irish or felt that anyone else is less Irish because they can't speak the language. In fact, I think that is classic transferal. Because they can't speak the language , the people who can are somehow a shower of youknowhats. It sounds like teenage girl bitchiness.



    You seem like a reasonable poster on other subjects but on this you to let 'na maidí rámha leis an sruth' (the oars go with the stream)
    The local postmaster (in Dublin) came from a small town in the Midlands and was such a fanatic/pain-in-the-arse on the subject of the Irish language. I went to buy stamps in the post office and asked for them in English and he says to me "Speak your mother tongue!". I just told him it is my bloody mother tongue and what he wants me to speak is on the Leaving Cert syllabus in the way French was. Then he goes on with "You should be ashamed of yourself" so I never want back to the post office simply to avoid dealing with this sort of Ravi Shankar.

    Dublin is a place where the nutters really stand out. Ogiols approach seems logical and inclusive, the very opposite of the hectoring, sneering ***** that so many orseholes who seemed to "possess" the language when I was growing up came out with. I developed an intense dislike of Irish as a teenager and that is something I regret now.

    So, to clarify, I would love to see the language be something that becomes an established, living expression of our culture and something that every citizen has a right to access. I would love to see the 90 years of abject failure stop and a new vibrant appraoch develop and be inclusive.

    We need to banish the nutters. They have done incredible damage to the language

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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    The local postmaster (in Dublin) came from a small town in the Midlands and was such a fanatic/pain-in-the-arse on the subject of the Irish language. I went to buy stamps in the post office and asked for them in English and he says to me "Speak your mother tongue!". I just told him it is my bloody mother tongue and what he wants me to speak is on the Leaving Cert syllabus in the way French was. Then he goes on with "You should be ashamed of yourself" so I never want back to the post office simply to avoid dealing with this sort of Ravi Shankar.

    Dublin is a place where the nutters really stand out. Ogiols approach seems logical and inclusive, the very opposite of the hectoring, sneering ***** that so many orseholes who seemed to "possess" the language when I was growing up came out with. I developed an intense dislike of Irish as a teenager and that is something I regret now.

    So, to clarify, I would love to see the language be something that becomes an established, living expression of our culture and something that every citizen has a right to access. I would love to see the 90 years of abject failure stop and a new vibrant appraoch develop and be inclusive.

    We need to banish the nutters. They have done incredible damage to the language
    I don't believe there are more orseholes in Irish language circles than in the other walks of life. Why do the Irish language ones stand out from the rest and why always on threads like these on the Internet . I've been surrounded by Irish speakers all my life, some of them I'd rather have not met but it didn't make me hate the language. The vast majority do not fit the characterisation that you or others have presented. I believe what you say about the fear an phoist but he is not representative of all Irish speakers and enthusiasts. I had a ****** of an English teacher at school but I don't hate English.

    Posters, here and elsewhere, are still trying to demonise the language with such personal anecdotes and repeating the same nonsense about Gaelscoileanna being refuges from the great unwashed , either native or foreign born. The Gaelscoileanna began when we had precious few immigrants and were founded in some of the most deprived areas. I wish the Irish haters would make up their minds if it's the backward language of the poor or the elitist tool of the oppressors. No evidence. Just spite.

    The Gaelscoil movement has been an Irish success story but god forbid something good could come from those fascists. And now after years of campaigning and achieving some new builds , along comes Ruairí Quinn with legislation that will leave pupils from bunscoileanna without the chance of an Irish language secondary education unless they have a meánscoil in their immediate locality. Families that have been involved in the founding of the schools will no longer be able to send what are now grand kids to these schools. The strong bonds of community and family and tradition ,only established , will be ripped apart. Again, official Ireland doing what it does best.
    Last edited by Lá an Lúbáin; 16-06-2013 at 04:13 PM.

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