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Thread: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

  1. #376
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    The EP is multi-lingual.

    It is a matter of time before there is automated computerised translation available and no excuse not to allow anyone to speak in their first language.

    Why did we give a waiver on use of our language ? Was that arranged by the same person that gave away our fish and our gas and oil ?

    So far, I'm liking Ms O'Riada.
    Intelligible automated real-time translation is decades away, contrary to popular opinion. For Irish it's even further, though emphasis could be put on developing speech technologies as gaeilge, much like they have with Catalan.

    In any case, Ní Riada is simply making a very worthy point. This ad-hoc accepting Irish as an official language of the EU and then just making up a new rule to deny the full consequences of that officiality (as they did) is simply transferring the Irish mentality towards Irish to the European Union. Which, of course is not comprehended by a huge majority of EU states which is turn has seen huge support for her campaign from other European countries, something that is in marked contrast to back at home.

    Meanwhile, we have twisted articles in the IT and Indo claiming that Gaelscoileanna are exclusionary & the reserve for bigots.... ironic isn't it, such doublespeak?!

  2. #377
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    Intelligible automated real-time translation is decades away, contrary to popular opinion. For Irish it's even further, though emphasis could be put on developing speech technologies as gaeilge, much like they have with Catalan.

    In any case, Ní Riada is simply making a very worthy point. This ad-hoc accepting Irish as an official language of the EU and then just making up a new rule to deny the full consequences of that officiality (as they did) is simply transferring the Irish mentality towards Irish to the European Union. Which, of course is not comprehended by a huge majority of EU states which is turn has seen huge support for her campaign from other European countries, something that is in marked contrast to back at home.

    Meanwhile, we have twisted articles in the IT and Indo claiming that Gaelscoileanna are exclusionary & the reserve for bigots.... ironic isn't it, such doublespeak?!
    Fine Gael seriously seems to want to bury the language. But appointing someone who could not speak it to the Minister's post now has us with a Minister who seems to be making a fair go of learning it very quickly.

    Who made up the new rule ? Who accepted it ?

    Ni Riada should keep going and ask for at least a few words from each Irish MEP speaking.

    The EP is such a powerless body that it is best used as an arena for consciousness raising.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  3. #378
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    Intelligible automated real-time translation is decades away, contrary to popular opinion. For Irish it's even further, though emphasis could be put on developing speech technologies as gaeilge, much like they have with Catalan.

    In any case, Ní Riada is simply making a very worthy point. This ad-hoc accepting Irish as an official language of the EU and then just making up a new rule to deny the full consequences of that officiality (as they did) is simply transferring the Irish mentality towards Irish to the European Union. Which, of course is not comprehended by a huge majority of EU states which is turn has seen huge support for her campaign from other European countries, something that is in marked contrast to back at home.

    Meanwhile, we have twisted articles in the IT and Indo claiming that Gaelscoileanna are exclusionary & the reserve for bigots.... ironic isn't it, such doublespeak?!
    I haven't been keeping up with position of Irish in the EU.

    Since O'Neachtáin's proposals it has been one of the official langauges. Isn't that really relevant only to written translation of documents and legislation ?.

    Did SÓ'Ns proposal include instantaneous realtime translation of speeches in Irish into each of the working languages ( presumably French, German, English?. This would be very expensive.

    Even further would it require the translation of all other speeches into Irish? Plainly OTT imho
    Last edited by homer; 04-03-2015 at 07:29 PM.

  4. #379
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by homer View Post
    I haven't been keeping up with position of Irish in the EU.

    Since O'Neachtáin's proposals it has been one of the official langauges. Isn't that really relevant only to written translation of documents and legislation.

    Did SÓ'Ns proposal include instantaneous realtime translation of speeches in Irish into each of the working languages ( presumably French, German, English?. This would be very expensive.

    Even further would it require the translation of all other speeches into Irish? Plainly OTT imho
    Would it be impossible to have a simultaneous translation into English, then translated from English to the other languages ? A little time delay, yes, but hardly onerous given the small number of MEPS who would use it.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  5. #380
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Would it be impossible to have a simultaneous translation into English, then translated from English to the other languages ? A little time delay, yes, but hardly onerous given the small number of MEPS who would use it.
    I can see objections to that along the lines that

    1. ( With the possible exception of Iníon Ní Riada ) the Irish MEPS have not used Irish when they were in DÉ, Seanad Éireann, or local authorities. The cúpla focal at the start of a speech b efore continuing in English would not count. Only a small minority of our politicians are able and interested in debating in Irish. In those circs it would laughable to suddenly demand instant translation of any remarks they make in Irish. Providing a written translation later in English, French and German should suffice.

    2. Instant translation from Irish into and from the full range of EU langauges would be very expensive, and for the reason in (1) above would be a joke.

    3. As Ogiol says machine translation is still in it's infancy. I have barely more than than the cúpla focal in German. I was asked to look at a Google machine translation of a technical article from German to English. Brutal, imho.

  6. #381
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by homer View Post
    I haven't been keeping up with position of Irish in the EU.

    Since O'Neachtáin's proposals it has been one of the official langauges. Isn't that really relevant only to written translation of documents and legislation ?.

    Did SÓ'Ns proposal include instantaneous realtime translation of speeches in Irish into each of the working languages ( presumably French, German, English?. This would be very expensive.

    Even further would it require the translation of all other speeches into Irish? Plainly OTT imho
    It's relevant to speaking in the EP. MEP's, or their assistants give notice of what language a speech is to be made, therefore translators are ready to type into whatever language, usually english, which appears as subtitles (with lag) on the broadcast screen, much like an opera. Translated records of speeches are naturally held too, as a record.

    Speeches are translated into any and often most working official EU languages so adding Irish would be of very minimal extra cost, therefore not OTT at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Would it be impossible to have a simultaneous translation into English, then translated from English to the other languages ? A little time delay, yes, but hardly onerous given the small number of MEPS who would use it.
    Of course. This is exactly what happens when any other official language is used in the EP. Simultaneous translation could also certainly be done into other official EU languages, not necessarily English.

    Quote Originally Posted by homer View Post
    I can see objections to that along the lines that

    1. ( With the possible exception of Iníon Ní Riada ) the Irish MEPS have not used Irish when they were in DÉ, Seanad Éireann, or local authorities. The cúpla focal at the start of a speech b efore continuing in English would not count. Only a small minority of our politicians are able and interested in debating in Irish. In those circs it would laughable to suddenly demand instant translation of any remarks they make in Irish. Providing a written translation later in English, French and German should suffice.

    2. Instant translation from Irish into and from the full range of EU langauges would be very expensive, and for the reason in (1) above would be a joke.

    3. As Ogiol says machine translation is still in it's infancy. I have barely more than than the cúpla focal in German. I was asked to look at a Google machine translation of a technical article from German to English. Brutal, imho.
    1. With proper and just rights behind Irish, then maybe more TDs could use Irish, encouraging more general usage. Prestige is fundamental to every language but even more so to those that have been demonised and whose speakers are ridiculed and vilified on a daily basis, be it in the Indo, IT, or in the Journal.

    2. It would be no more expensive than translations from or to any other of the 24 official EU languages. Either it is official and thus its speakers have the same rights as finnish speakers or it is not.

    3. Agreed. Machine translation is laughable and it may take decades for it to even approach a decent standard, especially speech to text technology. Huge corpus work still needs to be done.

  7. #382
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    It's relevant to speaking in the EP. MEP's, or their assistants give notice of what language a speech is to be made, therefore translators are ready to type into whatever language, usually english, which appears as subtitles (with lag) on the broadcast screen, much like an opera. Translated records of speeches are naturally held too, as a record.

    Speeches are translated into any and often most working official EU languages so adding Irish would be of very minimal extra cost, therefore not OTT at all.



    Of course. This is exactly what happens when any other official language is used in the EP. Simultaneous translation could also certainly be done into other official EU languages, not necessarily English.


    1. With proper and just rights behind Irish, then maybe more TDs could use Irish, encouraging more general usage. Prestige is fundamental to every language but even more so to those that have been demonised and whose speakers are ridiculed and vilified on a daily basis, be it in the Indo, IT, or in the Journal.

    2. It would be no more expensive than translations from or to any other of the 24 official EU languages. Either it is official and thus its speakers have the same rights as finnish speakers or it is not.

    3. Agreed. Machine translation is laughable and it may take decades for it to even approach a decent standard, especially speech to text technology. Huge corpus work still needs to be done.
    When it comes to promoting using the language, the most effective means is to "just do it" which is what Ni Riada did. The more it is used in centres of power, the more prestige it has (and by centres of power I don't mean only political power, cultural power matters too).



    T
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  8. #383
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    It's relevant to speaking in the EP. MEP's, or their assistants give notice of what language a speech is to be made, therefore translators are ready to type into whatever language, usually english, which appears as subtitles (with lag) on the broadcast screen, much like an opera. Translated records of speeches are naturally held too, as a record.

    Speeches are translated into any and often most working official EU languages so adding Irish would be of very minimal extra cost, therefore not OTT at all.



    Of course. This is exactly what happens when any other official language is used in the EP. Simultaneous translation could also certainly be done into other official EU languages, not necessarily English.



    1. With proper and just rights behind Irish, then maybe more TDs could use Irish, encouraging more general usage. Prestige is fundamental to every language but even more so to those that have been demonised and whose speakers are ridiculed and vilified on a daily basis, be it in the Indo, IT, or in the Journal.

    2. It would be no more expensive than translations from or to any other of the 24 official EU languages. Either it is official and thus its speakers have the same rights as finnish speakers or it is not.

    3. Agreed. Machine translation is laughable and it may take decades for it to even approach a decent standard, especially speech to text technology. Huge corpus work still needs to be done.
    Sorry distracted by that young wan on VB. Wiil get back to this topic later in the week

    Do hope use of Iriah grows in EU. I recall S Ó'Neachtáin was very hopeful when he was campaigning for official status.

    It would be a help and add credibility if TDs and Senators debated in Irish in Teach Laighean.

    In that regard have to compliment Joe McHugh whose Irish has improved since he started taking lessons.

  9. #384
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Now 29, the writer was 13 when he wrote this home from the Gaeltacht

    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  10. #385
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Ungrateful brat!

    Thus all which you call Sin, Destruction—in brief, Evil—that is my true element.

  11. #386
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogiol View Post
    The fact that you agree with an article in the indo is astounding. Apjp is spot on.

    We are not british or english. Those of us who speak irish are denied the ability to do this with the state everyday but somehow the argument is about compulsion? Shouldnt it be about rights?

    In my experience with the Irish language bodies, the problem is generally that as will all state bodies, they are full of party men, old pple and generally people who have no academic professional idea of language planning. Its sad and cumbersome, but those people generally have their hearts in the right place.

    A genuine national debate needs to happen, things must change and those who want to speak Irish, learn it or send their children to Irish language schools must have a constitutional right to do so. This does not impinge on the majority, it would just be allowing those who want to use Irish and who believe that its important , to do so.

    If this was the case, and if other circumstances were met, i would definitely agree to drop cumpulsion till leaving cert level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaadi View Post
    Agreed, the encouragement of cultural vandalism from a fifth columnist "newspaper". I regret not putting more effort in to learn it myself, it's a beautiful language and my kids seem to be being taught it in a way that encourages them. Lots of kids in their secondary school are extremely proficient in it from going to gaelscoileanna. Let those with a grá for it thrive in advanced classes and let those not too keen on it do a foundation type version of it in secondary school. Just the basics, the ability to hold a reasonable conversation in it would ensure that people would leave school with a basic grasp of the language and without having a chip on their shoulder about it from struggling to get the grades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    Actually, Hebrew as it is used in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories is a modern mixture of the dead Hebrew of the Bible and Middle European Yiddish (a type of Polish/German hybrid) as well as some North African and Middle East influences. It is well worth noting why it succeeded in becoming the lingua franca of the new Jewish state. It is a recent phenomenon. The English encouraged it by designating it an official language when they controlled Palestine. You are right that before this, the language was quite dead and used only in liturgy much as Catholics used Latin but its transition to being a first language for Israeli children today is unique and comes as a result of Jewish rejection of European languages in favor of Hebrew. This began with settlers to Palestine from Romania and Russia toward the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. It was their intention to displace the indigenous Palestinian Arabs and set-up a Jewish homeland. They succeeded in part because of the creation of Israel and the Zionist movement after the German/Russian War of 1941-1945. No lesson can be learned from this for Irish people and the Irish language.


    Unlike Hebrew, Czech was not dead.


    Please stop giving your unsolicited advice to other members.
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Now 29, the writer was 13 when he wrote this home from the Gaeltacht

    How did you make out with the wan who "looked like Satan"

    Could have been a real coming of age!

  12. #387
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    Default Re: The Irish Language - Kill it or Rejuvenate it?

    I see a Cork publican is doing his bit to destroy our native tongue. The bar manager at the Flying Enterprise pub in Cork walked out after receiving a written warning for speaking Irish to other staff members. The expression ' only in Ireland' is somewhat overused but this really couldnt happen in any country but ours on this planet.I had two groups of Facebook friends over this summern- from Holland and USA - and both asked where they could hear Irish spoken in a social setting. There is a big opportunity here but these clowns don't get it. Níl siad ag eitilt ar bith!

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