View Poll Results: Should Abortion be Legislated For in Ireland ?

Voters
98. You may not vote on this poll
  • The Woman Should Choose

    43 43.88%
  • The Woman Should Choose Up to a Time Limit

    35 35.71%
  • No Abortion Law Should be Passed

    3 3.06%
  • The Bill as Proposed Should Be Passed

    5 5.10%
  • Abortion Should Not Be Allowed

    2 2.04%
  • A Team of Experts Should Decide

    1 1.02%
  • One medical practitioner should decide

    4 4.08%
  • Abortion Should be Allowed If there is No Chance of the Baby Surviving

    16 16.33%
  • A Referendum is Needed: I would vote Yes

    10 10.20%
  • A Referendum is Needed: I would vote No

    5 5.10%
  • Time Limits Should Be Considered

    10 10.20%
  • Suicide Risk Should Not Be an Eligible Reason for Abortion

    14 14.29%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

  1. #541
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

    oh .. they continue to fear the woman with the power to decide ... (where does that leave them?)

  2. #542
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Irish law as it stands today allows abortion up to birth and has done since after the x case. I have always found that abominable and wrote about that here several times. And Irish law and the practice of forcing women abroad means that Irish women have much later abortions on average than women of other states. Also something that should not be happening. I've seen no real practical feeling for pre-birth beings in Irish abortion legislation as it is and I've not seen anyone from the No campaign complain about this or about late abortion. Why ?
    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    i understand there is a considerable age difference btw us and also I am not a man

    Let's give you these two scenarios assuming that in each case we are not dealing with teen pregnancies, peadophilia, incest, or rape of any kind ..

    for the most part, in my neck of the woods, for 1st pregnancies: IF a woman has 100% support of her partner when she gets pregnant for the 1st time with partner X she is more likely to want to continue the pregnancy ... so, in that case where does that leave the man that abandons the babies he makes?

    If there have been multiple babies in the past, a woman tends to make the following mathematical choice: is there enough "food/shelter" for all the babies and is my partner/husband able to keep it up? IF the answer is NO then the woman is more likely to NOT want to carry on with the pregnancy. In that case, where does that leave the man that is not able to provide for the number of babies he wants to make?

    Just so you know women do NOT, for the most part, go to a doctor to end a pregnancy in the last trimester UNLESS it is some sort of a medical emergency (under medical advice) and the only way to save the life of the mother.

    Keep in mind - ALWAYS - that behind a woman walking into a clinic to have an abortion there's a man that could not deal with the responsibility of having a baby - for the most part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder View Post
    Ach get over yerself.

    It's this sort of blatant lying and hysteria that ensured the No side would get absolutely hammered in the voting booth. All this gibberish about babies being aborted 3 days before the due date is just that - gibberish. Every single voter was well aware that the planned legislation is for abortion fairly unrestricted up to 12 weeks, then 12-24 weeks only in cases of FFA, rape, incest and risk to life of the mother. After that it will be illegal.

    Everybody knew that, it was more than adequately explained by the Govt, yet the No camp just couldn't help themselves with the loony nonsense. And after going down to a mahoosive defeat, you still don't get that this sort of rubbish is utterly counter-productive to the vast majority of voters outside of the hardcore religious pro-life base.
    One question and one question only was put to the electorate and that was whether or not to remove all constitutional protection from unborn children right up to birth.

    The answer given was a resounding YES. Well that is that and what is done will never be undone, but I feel many people answered YES to questions that they were not been asked. Questions around girls pregnant due to incest or rape and women pregnant with children who will not survive. These cases were presented as if the only way to solve them was to abolish all protection and to trust Irish Governments, present and future to look after Women and Children.

    People who would normally not trust the Government to mind their pet cat quoted the proposed legislation as if this government and future governments would not dream of going against the people. People who give out about the political elite not listening to the people were suddenly seized with a great desire to hand over unrestrained power over the lives of unborn children.
    I don't believe it was impossible to give protection and support to expecting mothers and their children while facilitating abortion in the rare and tragic cases, but the government did not put that choice to the people.

    One of the more ridiculous aspects of this referendum was the belief among some YES advocates that they were somehow big brave rebels going against a mighty powerful Catholic Church. They were nothing of the sort. The Catholic Church is routed in this country. It holds no sway, no power, it is irrelevant. If they want to confront an alien aggressive, oppressive and expanding ideology let them have a go at Islam.

    The 8th amendment should never have been put into the constitution and I canvased against it back in 1983 (I have a talent for been on the losing side). The law should have been allowed to evolve naturally. But it wasn't. Now the dam that was built in 1983 has burst and in typically Irish fashion we swing to the other extreme and throw an abortion party in Dublin Castle to celebrate our disenfranchisement. There were alternative wordings which could have been placed before the people. They were not. Only time will tell what the ramifications of our decision will be.

  3. #543
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

    The 8th ammendment had to be taken out as it completely hamstrung medical decisions. In reality put the life of the unborn before the mother as the mother, even though surviving, could be left in a terrible way. It basically let the mother survive. It really was one of the most descriminate things against women in the constitution. The Catholic Church is getting more irrelevant by the day thanks to the likes of last week's vote
    ..but you're in denial if you think that rcc sentiment wasn't behind the "Love both" nonsense.

  4. #544
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by eamo View Post
    I don't believe it was impossible to give protection and support to expecting mothers and their children while facilitating abortion in the rare and tragic cases, but the government did not put that choice to the people.
    Ireland has a history of 'giving' protection to those expecting mothers then kidnapping their children and selling them off under State Sanctioned/Priest Blessed directives.

    Your people and especially your women had enough of the men that make this type of moral bankrupt decisions.

    One of the more ridiculous aspects of this referendum was the belief among some YES advocates that they were somehow big brave rebels going against a mighty powerful Catholic Church. They were nothing of the sort. The Catholic Church is routed in this country. It holds no sway, no power, it is irrelevant. If they want to confront an alien aggressive, oppressive and expanding ideology let them have a go at Islam.
    hmmm ... what was i saying above? talk to your children and grandchildren they obviously voted yes.

    LOL islam? what does Islam have to do with you people abusing your women, selling off their offspring and locking them away in your laundries for at least a century so people (like yous) could live at peace with your morals?

    The 8th amendment should never have been put into the constitution and I canvased against it back in 1983 (I have a talent for been on the losing side). The law should have been allowed to evolve naturally. But it wasn't. Now the dam that was built in 1983 has burst and in typically Irish fashion we swing to the other extreme and throw an abortion party in Dublin Castle to celebrate our disenfranchisement. There were alternative wordings which could have been placed before the people. They were not. Only time will tell what the ramifications of our decision will be.
    seems like Desperate times called for desperate measures?

    what time will tell re ramifications of your collective decision is that women that are supported by their partners/husbands/boyfriends will continue to have their babies and the ones that don't have the support will take care of it safely in a clinic.

  5. #545
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by disability student View Post
    As person with a disability, i voted no because myriad of various issues such as Eugenics, diversity etc. Before you jump out at me and call me conservative. By the way, i'm not conservative just a human being with a conscience. I don't agree with RCC in some areas given their history and their obsession with power. In short, spiritually doesn't equate with power.

    Imagine a pregnant mother who didn't know that her child is a child with disability until a medical doctor tells them that you have a baby with varying degrees of disabilities ranging from blind,brain damaged, deaf , handicapped to deformed or down syndrome etc. It could arise from DNA testing or some other form of improved medical technological testing which informs them (doctors) that a child have some form of disability. This could lead or put pressure on any woman to abort her baby.


    Also it could led to issue of the dreaded Eugenics which started originally from the Nazi's experiment in 19040's. With eugenics starting coming from the medical community allied with some politicians, which could eliminate people with varying disabilities in terms of population and numbers as well. You call me paranoid if you like but it did HAPPEN. It will happen again in near future as history have a habit of repeating itself.

    Of course, I see nothing wrong with disabilities just being different and also enable them to diversify the population and the workplace in general and also to correct the misconceptions of many disabilities that some people have or they not disability aware so on. So that people could learn from them .
    I appreciate your own sensitivities and would remind you that we have a Dail full of enough crawthumpers to block any extreme legislation.

    Now imagine a mother going through a pregnancy that she never wanted and spending 20 years rearing a child. That's a sentence, now imagine a mother going through all that except this time she has to rear a profoundly disabled child for the rest of the mother's own life. That's one hell of a physical and mental sentence and either case could be avoided if the woman wished so by allowing the woman to have a termination in the first twelve weeks before the foetus has developed a brain.

    No developed brain function equals no person existing at the time of termination.

  6. #546
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment


  7. #547
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

    Very interesting, Saoirse, and I had noted the final point myself - particularly from men who were 'vox popped' the most usual reply I heard was that the woman/women should decide.

    The Yes posters were extraordinarily bland.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  8. #548
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

    what time will tell re ramifications of your collective decision is that women that are supported by their partners/husbands/boyfriends will continue to have their babies and the ones that don't have the support will take care of it safely in a clinic.
    Suicides of single mothers were reported as way up in a South Dublin survey published a few weeks back. Anything to do with Joan Burton's deliberate impoverishment of single mothers - touted as a way of pushing them in to the workforce, but in reality making education and employment harder to access, and pushing them and their children into poverty? There has been a dramatic increase in suicide in women with children 20-30 years old, in S. Dublin, since Burton's 'reforms' in single parent supports were pushed through.
    Prof Veronica O’Keane, consultant psychiatrist based in Tallaght Hospital, says many of the women she sees are in severe mental distress. “These unspeakable tragedies have occurred in spite of the very committed psychiatry and GP services in the community.
    “I sit in clinics daily listening to the extraordinarily difficult lives of women who are trying to cope with the most challenging of human endeavours – trying to be a good parent – in the context of sometimes not having a home, an adequate income and often with the threat of violence hanging over their heads.”
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...reas-1.3502336
    Last edited by C. Flower; 02-06-2018 at 02:52 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  9. #549
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

    Women in Ireland in the second half of the 20th century were, contrary to practice in most of the developed world,


    • legally subject to marital rape,
    • no divorce (even now a five year waiting period after separation)
    • denied the right to legally use contraception,
    • forced to continue even non-viable or life-threatening pregnancies, or pregnancies resulting from rape to full term - even at age of 13
    • locked away, if pregnant before marriage, and told their baby had died - baby stolen by religious then sold to an affluent Irish or US buyer (100,000s of 'adoptions').
    • subject to being incarcerated for life with hard labour, without trial or right of appeal, if pregnant outside marriage. Some women still alive never got out.
    • sacked from their public sector jobs if they married
    • denied control of weekly child allowance which went to the man (and thus much less likely to be spent on the child).
    • had to have a man sign for them to have a passport
    • husband can claim wife's tax allowance (still the case).


    These things were happening not in the twenties and thirties, but in some instances well into the 21st century.

    Woman's role was baby-making machine (primarily for producing male heirs) and indentured servant.

    And it wasn't only the Church. The story of a woman - in the 1950s -alleged by her husband to be pregnant by a man other than himself, incarcerated for life on order of the head /executive of Carlow County Council, and her child taken and given for adoption, is one that has stuck ineradicably in my mind.

    And again, in Carlow, the mother of a friend of mine who had repeatedly gone to the Guards looking for protection from her extremely violent and unstable husband, and repeatedly turned away because her husband drank with the Guards (and bought them drink). Deaths of women killed by husbands not being listed as 'fatal offences' by Gardai, still ongoing.

    I'm sure I've forgotten a lot more. There was a head of steam behind the Yes vote.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 03-06-2018 at 10:57 AM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  10. #550
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

    I think a great book that needs to be written is one which takes a critical look at the negative actions (aside even from the negative cultural influence) of the Catholic Church in Ireland from the start of the 19th Century onward - The church has betrayed the citizens of this island on so many occasions, both in terms of the national issue and rights based ones such as C.Flower details above.

    And it's still one of the largest landowners in the country.

  11. #551
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Very interesting, Saoirse, and I had noted the final point myself - particularly from men who were 'vox popped' the most usual reply I heard was that the woman/women should decide.

    The Yes posters were extraordinarily bland.
    Find it hard to fathom that some of the "lead campaigners" thought involving Terry Prone was a good idea.

    But really, this campaign owes its success to normal people having conversations with each other, not some grand plan forged upon high.

    For so long the Catholic Church and it's culture seemed unassailable, concrete, stable and permanent. But as you point out, a head of steam was building beneath the surface as things and attitudes changed little by little, sometimes almost invisibly until, over the past 25 years or so and accelerating up until today, all has changed utterly.

    Surely a fine example of Marx's dialectic in action.

  12. #552
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

    Warning: this piece is SERIOUSLY unhinged. I really would not recommend reading it frankly, it's off-the-charts toxic insanity. "In truth, rigged elections and referendums are akin to a form of cabalistic black magic targeted directly at the masses." and endless reams of bonkers bat-**** conspiracy theories and neo-Nazi horseshyte about Rothschild Judeo-Masonic conspiracies. It's vile, vile stuff.

    I mention it just in case anyone is under the impression that Ireland is somehow immune to Trumpist ultra-right poison. They do indeed exist, and they are trying very very hard online to drum up converts. We must all remain vigilant against the spread of the alt-right.

    https://fitzinfo.wordpress.com/2018/...ig-in-ireland/

  13. #553
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    Default Re: Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 and Referendum on 8th Amendment

    The UK Courts have rejected a human rights case with regard to abortion rights in the North of Ireland (completely out of kilter with the law in the rest of the U.K.), but only on the basis that the NGO that took the case did not have sufficient legal standing to bring the case. The judges agreed that the law as it stands is not compatible with human rights laws.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44395150
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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