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Thread: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

  1. #16
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ang View Post
    We have very little control over the purse strings with the implementation of different EU objectives. Budgets now have to be submitted to the EC for approval by the 15th Oct each year before being presented to Dail Eireann. I would call that lack of sovereignty.
    Overstated - the budget has to be submitted for scrutiny, but it cannot be vetoed. "Submitted for approval" suggests a veto which doesn't exist.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ibis View Post
    Overstated - the budget has to be submitted for scrutiny, but it cannot be vetoed. "Submitted for approval" suggests a veto which doesn't exist.
    A redraft of a Nations budget can be requested.
    Thomas Jefferson : Banking Establishments are More Dangerous to our Liberties than Standing Armies.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ang View Post
    A redraft of a Nations budget can be requested.
    And it would require a lot of backbone from our leaders to deny such a request.


  4. #19
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ang View Post
    A redraft of a Nations budget can be requested.
    And refused. "Approval" still implies something which is not the case, and which you apparently know not to be the case. Why have a debate on false terms?

  5. #20
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ibis View Post
    And refused. "Approval" still implies something which is not the case, and which you apparently know not to be the case. Why have a debate on false terms?
    Not sure the EC agrees with you.
    A spokesman for the European commission said it was standard procedure to copy budget proposals of bailed-out countries to all member states for approval by eurozone ministers
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...nd-budget-leak

  6. #21
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaddyJoe View Post
    "Bailed out countries" is a rather relevant qualifier...

  7. #22
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ibis View Post
    And refused. "Approval" still implies something which is not the case, and which you apparently know not to be the case. Why have a debate on false terms?
    If the EC do not *like* budget presented they will ask for a redraft. I would say one could interpret that as the EC not approving of the budget presented.

    Then again some would interpret the two pack as the EC having more control over National budgets -

    The new legislation strengthens EU control over Eurozone budgets
    That would be Nessa Childers MEP I would assume she would have a fair idea of what she was voting for.

    http://www.nessachilders.ie/news/201...gainst-auster/
    Thomas Jefferson : Banking Establishments are More Dangerous to our Liberties than Standing Armies.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ang View Post
    If the EC do not *like* budget presented they will ask for a redraft. I would say one could interpret that as the EC not approving of the budget presented.

    Then again some would interpret the two pack as the EC having more control over National budgets -



    That would be Nessa Childers MEP I would assume she would have a fair idea of what she was voting for.

    http://www.nessachilders.ie/news/201...gainst-auster/
    To be a little unkind, I don't know whether Nessa Childers even knows which party she's voting for. But here's the Commission:

    Budget oversight gives Europe scrutiny but not sovereignty

    The Commission’s findings will be sent to the European Parliament, while discussions with Member States will take place in Council, most likely among economic and finance ministers. However, responsibility for the final approbation and adoption of that budget remains firmly with national parliaments – Commission, Council and Parliament can help improve it, perhaps, but they cannot veto or block it.
    http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/sefcovic/b...t-sovereignty/

  9. #24
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ibis View Post
    To be a little unkind, I don't know whether Nessa Childers even knows which party she's voting for. But here's the Commission:

    http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/sefcovic/b...t-sovereignty/
    Let's not mention the Bundestag.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
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  10. #25
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ibis View Post
    But here's the Commission:
    I'm sure after much discussion and late nights agreement will be reached on how best a budget should be presented.

    It would appear Angela does not believe that the commission have enough power - Merkel says euro members must be prepared to cede sovereignty -

    "We need to be ready to accept that Europe has the last word in certain areas. Otherwise we won't be able to continue to build Europe," she added.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...0D92AS20130422
    Thomas Jefferson : Banking Establishments are More Dangerous to our Liberties than Standing Armies.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ang View Post
    I'm sure after much discussion and late nights agreement will be reached on how best a budget should be presented.

    It would appear Angela does not believe that the commission have enough power - Merkel says euro members must be prepared to cede sovereignty -



    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...0D92AS20130422
    Well, yes - in order for there to be European solutions, "Europe" has to have the last word in certain areas. Is that surprising in some way? Or should it be the case that we agree things in Europe but nobody has to implement them?

  12. #27
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ibis View Post
    Well, yes - in order for there to be European solutions, "Europe" has to have the last word in certain areas. Is that surprising in some way? Or should it be the case that we agree things in Europe but nobody has to implement them?
    Europe should not have the last word on National budgets. We have this funny old thing called democracy and we should be able to elect a person/group who best represents us. Unelected technocrats in europe taking control of budgets does not fit the bill.
    Thomas Jefferson : Banking Establishments are More Dangerous to our Liberties than Standing Armies.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ang View Post
    Merkel says euro members must be prepared to cede sovereignty -
    Righto, Angela, how about you cede some sovereignty and allow a Europe wide banking commission that will dig the bodies out of Deutsche and Commerzbank cellars, and do a spot of Europe wide recapitalization with ECB money??

    Funny the way we don't like ceding our own sovereignty, but that of other is fair game? Especially when it allows us to hide our own banking skeletons?
    "The floggings will continue until morale improves "

  14. #29
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ang View Post
    Europe should not have the last word on National budgets. We have this funny old thing called democracy and we should be able to elect a person/group who best represents us. Unelected technocrats in europe taking control of budgets does not fit the bill.
    Sigh. Europe does not have the last word on budgets. We've been over this. It can only recommend. If it is ever to gain the power to veto national budgets, that power will have to be voted to it by national parliaments and/or referendums, and will, therefore, be democratically transferred.

  15. #30
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    Default Re: "Exiting the Bailout" What Will That Involve ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ibis View Post
    Sigh. Europe does not have the last word on budgets. We've been over this. It can only recommend. If it is ever to gain the power to veto national budgets, that power will have to be voted to it by national parliaments and/or referendums, and will, therefore, be democratically transferred.
    What about EDP -
    On the basis of this surveillance, the Commission can conclude that a Member State must take further measures since its financial situation could have major adverse effects on the financial stability of the euro area. In such cases, the Commission can propose that the Council of Ministers recommend to the Member State concerned to adopt corrective measures or put together a draft macro-economic adjustment programme.
    For clarity -

    The surveillance process has been considerably improved with the Six-Pack. However, experience shows that we should expect the unexpected. Consequently, the enhanced surveillance procedures introduced by the Two-Pack will enable closer monitoring of countries either threatened with or experiencing financial difficulties. They will give the Commission the powers needed to ensure, or re-establish, a sustainable path.
    http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-196_en.htm

    I will though give the EU credit for making best use of language to suit.
    Thomas Jefferson : Banking Establishments are More Dangerous to our Liberties than Standing Armies.

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