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Thread: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by DCon View Post
    This was never suggested. The suggestion was that a group of citizens provide the final approval, after the qualified people have chosen the best tender.
    What purpose is served by giving a random selection of unaccountable people the right to veto public projects when we have democratically elected and accountable politicians for that purpose?

    If that's the way you want to do things we could make savings by abolishing the Oireachtas and leaving everything up to random chance.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by DCon View Post
    In your opinion.
    Not just my opinion. A little book that I recommended here in the past is The Parish Pump by former FG councillor Myles Tierney. It outlines the tension between the needs of good democratic government and financial efficiency and explains how we can't have both.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCon View Post
    I think, given the rampant waste and corruption in Irish public life, that it would save money to enact a proposal like the above.

    May not be perfect, but it would be better.
    It's very easy to claim that there's rampant waste but it's revealing that a thread here on that topic produced very few examples. Your own second post in that thread points to one of the problems with efficiency in a democracy.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    What purpose is served by giving a random selection of unaccountable people the right to veto public projects when we have democratically elected and accountable politicians for that purpose?

    If that's the way you want to do things we could make savings by abolishing the Oireachtas and leaving everything up to random chance.
    What is the purpose of giving a bunch of unaccountable people the purse strings and letting them get on with robbing everybody blind?

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post

    It's very easy to claim that there's rampant waste but it's revealing that a thread here on that topic produced very few examples. Your own second post in that thread points to one of the problems with efficiency in a democracy.
    It's also easy to pretend that ESAT were the best bidder for the mobile phone licence and Ronan & Barrett won the Convention Centre tender because they were the best offer.

    Neither are true however
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephilant View Post
    What is the purpose of giving a bunch of unaccountable people the purse strings and letting them get on with robbing everybody blind?
    Presumably you're referring to politicians there but they are accountable to us at general elections. Ironically the politician who perpetrated the greatest robbery of citizens in the history of the state was re-elected as the only FF TD in Dublin at the last GE.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by DCon View Post
    It's also easy to pretend that ESAT were the best bidder for the mobile phone licence and Ronan & Barrett won the Convention Centre tender because they were the best offer.

    Neither are true however
    Assuming those claims are true (and I have no way of knowing if they are), how do you think things would be better if a bunch of randomly chosen, unqualified people had the right of veto?

    How would such people even begin to assess complex proposals and determine their merit?

    Random selection of tenders would probably be just as effective. Maybe even more-so.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceannaire View Post
    Point taken, but a lot of that is just a result of the contradictions our two-tier system tends to throw up. I would argue that that is what ought to be tackled, not that it can be done overnight.




    Something must be done about an issue that affects so many citizens. We've had a referendum on judges' pay which makes no direct difference to their lives -- it shouldn't be out of the question to do so on such an important matter as this. What were the grounds; was it a violation of the private property article?
    Of course it was. And if you live in Ireland, you phuq with the sanctity of private property only if you have a deathwish. I think it was the Madigan case in 1968 with did away with a proposal to restrict rent increases. The government wanted to restrict the manner in which increases in rent could be applied. Mr. Madigan wheeled out Article 43 and battered the government with it. Since then, the message has been loud and clear: private property in Ireland attracts sanctified status.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    Presumably you're referring to politicians there but they are accountable to us at general elections. Ironically the politician who perpetrated the greatest robbery of citizens in the history of the state was re-elected as the only FF TD in Dublin at the last GE.
    All elections do is cull the pool of available politicians down to the required quota, elections do not guarantee accountability, far from it. If they did, then the politician you refer to would not have been re-elected. We have the same problem here. It is precisely because people have absolutely no idea of what these guys are up to, and there is no obligation on them to tell us, and no means of checking or holding them accountable, that these situations can happen. And the methods allowing them to happen are put in place by the very politicians the likes o whom you mention, without any ongoing accountability for their actions. Accountability is an ongoing process, not a 1.6 sec abomination of the concept of democracy every 4 years giving people the false impression they actually have a say in how their lives will be shaped.
    These days, even the pretence of that so called "democratic right" has gone out the window with appointed commissioners, an appointed EC president, and appointed Troika members.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephilant View Post
    All elections do is cull the pool of available politicians down to the required quota, elections do not guarantee accountability, far from it. If they did, then the politician you refer to would not have been re-elected. We have the same problem here. It is precisely because people have absolutely no idea of what these guys are up to, and there is no obligation on them to tell us, and no means of checking or holding them accountable, that these situations can happen. And the methods allowing them to happen are put in place by the very politicians the likes o whom you mention, without any ongoing accountability for their actions. Accountability is an ongoing process, not a 1.6 sec abomination of the concept of democracy every 4 years giving people the false impression they actually have a say in how their lives will be shaped.
    These days, even the pretence of that so called "democratic right" has gone out the window with appointed commissioners, an appointed EC president, and appointed Troika members.
    Perhaps the problem rests with voters who consider 1.6 seconds every four years an acceptable level of involvement in the democratic process.

    We have a duty to inform ourselves about how we're governed and to vote accordingly. It hardly took great genius coupled with unrestricted access to all the relevant documents to conclude that Lenihan's blank cheque to the bankers was an immoral imposition on the public. Lenihan could have been held to account but the voters in his constituency chose to ignore the fact that he was a lying drunk who'd bankrupted the state.

    Democracy is undoubtedly flawed but it still trumps random selection of unqualified and utterly unaccountable people to make important decisions.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    Democracy is undoubtedly flawed but it still trumps random selection of unqualified and utterly unaccountable people to make important decisions.
    I agree with the fact that the electorate is, to a large extent, the potential problem. But then, that problem is not just compounded, but becomes reality through politicians who abuse the system and use their elected status to build a powerbase instead of serve their country and its people. Very much like irresponsible borrowing was (and remains) the inherent potential problem in the financial system, but one which could only materialize through the practice of irresponsible lending. The irresponsible lending is the spark that triggered the avalanche of borrowing. The unaccountability is the spark that triggers the abuse.
    The only reason politicians can do so is because they are not held to account. I cannot, for the life of me understand how anybody with half a brain cell can maintain that current day politicians are either qualified or accountable. Reality flies in the face of such a contention. That goes on politicians at every level of politics, from your parochial local TD right up to the president of the EC, who is not even elected, nor are his commissioners or their bullyboys the Troika.
    The biggest flaw in the democratic system is that because of it being democratic it also leaves itself wide open to being hijacked by not so democratically minded individuals. The Barosso's, Draghi's, Van Rompuys and Dijsselbloems of this world being very much part of that unqualified, unelected and unaccountable gang.
    So maybe we should not only look at savings to be made by reforming the democratic system and preventing the ongoing abuse and all the expense going with it, but protect the system by introducing a tax on irrelevance? That would surely result in about 95% of the world's politicians being taxed out of existence, much like people today are being taxed into dire poverty by these very totally irrelevant individuals?
    Last edited by Ephilant; 12-04-2013 at 05:49 AM.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    There's probably not a single cent of public sending that isn't disputed by someone, that's the nature of politics.
    The purpose of this thread is for people to put up a list of savings that they believe would be relatively pain free. It would be a good idea to let it roll as such I think, and use a separate thread to subject them to scrutiny.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Councillors going to conferences to stay in the lowest price available registered/approved accommodation.

    No RTE presenter to get more than €100,000 a year: no presenter to present more than one regular weekly programme.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Councillors going to conferences to stay in the lowest price available registered/approved accommodation.
    And they travel by public transport, which will be reimbursed on production of receipts. If it is good enough for the people they claim to represent it is good enough for them
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by DCon View Post
    And they travel by public transport, which will be reimbursed on production of receipts. If it is good enough for the people they claim to represent it is good enough for them
    Whatever is cheapest. A trip from Donegal to Waterford by public transport would probably take two days and cost hundreds.

    But where feasible they should car share. In some cases they do this already, but they submit separate expenses claims
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Pain Free Savings We Could Make - List them Here..!

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    The purpose of this thread is for people to put up a list of savings that they believe would be relatively pain free. It would be a good idea to let it roll as such I think, and use a separate thread to subject them to scrutiny.
    Well you're the boss so if you want to keep this as a thread where people can make any sort of claim without the possibility of being challenged on it then that's what will happen.

    It is rather an odd idea in a discussion forum though.

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