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    Default RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Republican Network for Unity met at the ‘Croisbhealaí’ collective rooms in central Belfast on Tuesday March 19th , for the official public release of their latest publication ‘Revolutionary Republicanism’.

    The publication sets out in concrete terms, our alternative proposals to the failed ways of constitutional Nationalism and suggests a clear and viable way forward for those who still propose National Liberation & Socialism as the real cure for Ireland’s ills.
    http://www.republicanunity.org/


    Full PDF: http://www.republicanunity.org/wp-co...blicanism..pdf

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    A very positive development. A document to be welcomed.

    Republican socialists are the great hope of Ireland today. Standing firmly on a revolutionary tradition that goes back centuries they are the only people placed to bring to the Irish working class the revolutionary perspective it so badly needs today. The corrosive and stifling grip of trotskyism on the Irish left needs to be blown aside.

    What is not needed at the moment, however, is people fighting their own corner. What chances, I wonder, of links being developed between Eirigi, RNU, the socialist republican forum that the CPI has been working in, and others of a similar perspective?
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Very nice to see this.

    I'm only about half way through the document and have to put it down for a few hours while I attend necessities. I'm impressed with what I've read so far.

    Humans cannot be said to exercise their full potential, if communities or nations are not allowed to
    self determine, i.e. have the right to make decisions, even if at times they are the wrong decisions.
    The only powers that have benefited from the denial of self-determination have been
    Imperialist/Capitalist powers; there is no real benefit for people who live under occupation or
    colonisation of any degree.
    I'm particularly pleased to see "communities" used in this sentiment. I'm convinced that the word is used in the full understanding of its breadth, from what I've read so far.

    Good stuff!

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    A very positive development. A document to be welcomed.

    Republican socialists are the great hope of Ireland today. Standing firmly on a revolutionary tradition that goes back centuries they are the only people placed to bring to the Irish working class the revolutionary perspective it so badly needs today. The corrosive and stifling grip of trotskyism on the Irish left needs to be blown aside.

    What is not needed at the moment, however, is people fighting their own corner. What chances, I wonder, of links being developed between Eirigi, RNU, the socialist republican forum that the CPI has been working in, and others of a similar perspective?
    The CPI would be better off allying itself with Vincent de Paul.

    There are very good people in Republican Socialism, and a fine anti-Imperialist tradition. I'm not too aware of any tradition of social revolution they might have. There is a good way along the road that socialists and left republicans can go together, but to go all the way, republicans need to overcome nationalism.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 20-03-2013 at 07:27 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    There is a good way along the road that socialists and left republicans can go together, but to go all the way, republicans need to overcome nationalism.
    Republicanism and nationalism are two entirely separate things. I was explaining some of this to you on another thread but my post was deleted in error by one of the mods. Confounding the two things is a typical reactionary trotskyite position. Like others, designed to sound very radical while in essence serving imperialism.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Republicanism and nationalism are two entirely separate things. I was explaining some of this to you on another thread but my post was deleted in error by one of the mods. Confounding the two things is a typical reactionary trotskyite position. Like others, designed to sound very radical while in essence serving imperialism.
    Unfortunate that the post was deleted. Perhaps you would like to explain how republicanism is "entirely separate" from nationalism? Different, yes. But not entirely separate as Republicanism is about popular control of a piece of territory, a State or (historically) a City State. Republicanism is another name for bourgeois democracy. If that is what you are satisfied with, fine, but it is a sinking ship historically, and also an illusion, as so called democratic states are rapidly becoming anything but that, under pressure from the economic crisis.

    The existence of left Republicanism in Ireland is because British Imperialism will not tolerate any measure of independence here beyond the existing 26 counties State. Coming up against British Imperialism continuously radicalises a layer of people who resist it. Their objective is not to destroy British Imperialism, but to get free of it. This is the political basis on which Adams and McGuinness continued to negotiate in secret with the British through the whole of the "Troubles" to the GFA. It drives people into conflict with the British, but ultimately is not revolutionary. Once satisfied in its local goals, it turns against anyone revolutionary.

    Reformists and bureaucratic tendencies in the workers movement have repeatedly drawn revolutionary workers into the ambit of all kinds of bourgeois nationalists and populists, with an uncritical promotion of them as "progressive." The results have not been good.

    Name calling might be fun, but in the absence of any political substance or analysis is not going anywhere in convincing anyone in your position.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 21-03-2013 at 09:22 AM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    A very positive development. A document to be welcomed.

    Republican socialists are the great hope of Ireland today. Standing firmly on a revolutionary tradition that goes back centuries they are the only people placed to bring to the Irish working class the revolutionary perspective it so badly needs today. The corrosive and stifling grip of trotskyism on the Irish left needs to be blown aside.

    What is not needed at the moment, however, is people fighting their own corner. What chances, I wonder, of links being developed between Eirigi, RNU, the socialist republican forum that the CPI has been working in, and others of a similar perspective?
    Who are you talking about specifically when you refer to the stifling grip of trotskyism on the Irish left? The Socialist Party? The Sticky lead Labour Party? The former WP members of Labour aren't advocating revolution of any kind, although some of them are on record advocating it in the long distant past, Pat Rabbitte comes to mind.

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Quote Originally Posted by goatstoe View Post
    Who are you talking about specifically when you refer to the stifling grip of trotskyism on the Irish left? The Socialist Party? The Sticky lead Labour Party? The former WP members of Labour aren't advocating revolution of any kind, although some of them are on record advocating it in the long distant past, Pat Rabbitte comes to mind.
    The Left seems to consist of the "stifiling grippers" on the one hand - active, but mainly in leading people down cul de sacs and on the other hand, the semi-retired of the WP and CPI. I hope I haven't left anyone out. The latter, presumably encouraged by the dire state of the former, seem to be raising their profile a little recently.

    I think it is probably very difficult to be a revolutionary in times when electoral politics dominate, which could in part account for them making such a hames of it.

    The Left Republicans and Anarchists seem to be stealing their revolutionary clothes.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    The Left seems to consist of the "stifiling grippers" on the one hand - active, but mainly in leading people down cul de sacs and on the other hand, the semi-retired of the WP and CPI. I hope I haven't left anyone out. The latter, presumably encouraged by the dire state of the former, seem to be raising their profile a little recently.

    I think it is probably very difficult to be a revolutionary in times when electoral politics dominate, which could in part account for them making such a hames of it.

    The Left Republicans and Anarchists seem to be stealing their revolutionary clothes.
    Semi-retired? I wish.

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Ah- here we go. How socialism can only be republican if there is no republic on the map. Socialism's arse looks big in republicanism so it has to adopt the global Muu Muu promised by Lenin and co as a global revolution.

    I am heartened by the document's excerpt posted above:

    Humans cannot be said to exercise their full potential, if communities or nations are not allowed to self determine, i.e. have the right to make decisions, even if at times they are the wrong decisions. The only powers that have benefited from the denial of self-determination have been Imperialist/Capitalist powers; there is no real benefit for people who live under occupation or colonisation of any degree.
    More and more I come to understand that too many socialists are as philosophically committed to corporate globalisation- whether it be under the banner of Coca-Cola or Leninism. The effects would be likely to be the same.
    Think National. Act Local. Oh- and superstition is just the dark matter of human history.

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan View Post
    Ah- here we go. How socialism can only be republican if there is no republic on the map. Socialism's arse looks big in republicanism so it has to adopt the global Muu Muu promised by Lenin and co as a global revolution.

    I am heartened by the document's excerpt posted above:

    More and more I come to understand that too many socialists are as philosophically committed to corporate globalisation- whether it be under the banner of Coca-Cola or Leninism. The effects would be likely to be the same.
    Humans cannot be said to exercise their full potential, if communities or nations are not allowed to self determine, i.e. have the right to make decisions, even if at times they are the wrong decisions. The only powers that have benefited from the denial of self-determination have been Imperialist/Capitalist powers; there is no real benefit for people who live under occupation or colonisation of any degree.
    Does this include the decision of the German State to do over Cyprus, or the decision of British State to hang on to Ireland ?

    In no way do I support the German State in its abuse of Cyprus, or the British State in holding on to part of Ireland, in the interests of their supposed rights.

    In every case in which a smaller or weaker nation defends its sovereignty from the claims of larger, stronger ones (whether the Malvinas, the north of Ireland, North Korea, Libya or Venezuela), then I would entirely agree with the quotation above.

    What you say about Leninism is a fantasy, far removed from what it actually is.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 21-03-2013 at 01:22 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Some thoughts.

    Republicans, of all hues, need to accept that the republic declared in 1916 is gone. The mandate from the first Dáil is gone. Everyone who sat in it or voted in the elections are dead. It ratified the Proclamation and declared independence yes, but it was then defeated and crushed.The good guys lost, and not for the first time.

    Documents such as the Proclamation and the Democratic program of the first Dáil should not be treated as gospel, or things which define or limit republican socialism. The Irish Republic declared in 1916 was not the first one declared. Republics were declared in 1798, 1803 and 1867. These did not utterly dominate and limit subsequent republican revolutionaries - each attempted revolution was a revolution of its day. Not one of a hundred years before, despite the general arguments and ideas being similar. These declarations and assorted documents merely served as inspiration and templates. They were an evolution, and its wrong to treat the documents and writings of the 1916 revolutionary period as the zenith of republican thought. It is forever a work in progress.

    1916 was almost a hundred years ago. Todays generation treat it as history, not something which is relevant to their day to day lives today. It doesn't capture the imagination beyond being a mere tale of heroism, like a film or book. The parallels, unfinished business and echoes of life today in that time should be but footnotes, not the main thrust of argument from revolutionary republicans.

    The past should be a reference, a guide, inspiration - the work should be towards building and arguing for a new Republic, a new living, breathing country - one obviously relevant to the struggles the masses of today have, in a language they understand - rather than attempts at resurrecting one which died.

    Republicans also need to accept that they have lost the struggle of the past half century or so - militarily and propaganda wise too. The "Brits Out" aspiration, while an admirable, worthy goal should not be the main thrust of argument - people are conditioned to be repelled at that. Instead of briefly mentioning the IMF, Troika and other associated capitalist colonial and imperialist tools as a footnote and parallel to British imperialism it should be the main thrust of argument as it is clear to the general public the damage and wrongs they are doing today. There is not the same moralistic clouds of hand-wringing over that as there is about British imperialism. Continuing the way things are going will mean that by and large only the initiated - a few supporters of broadly nationalist parties will ever be persuaded to support, or at least see the need for, a revolution. Focusing on the IMF and the forces that are ruling Europe and how to combat against this will widen the gene pool. Once initiated it can easily be explained to them how British imperialism in Ireland is the exact same and must be removed also. Make the easy sell first.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 22-03-2013 at 08:27 PM.

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse go Deo View Post
    Some thoughts.

    Republicans, of all hues, need to accept that the republic declared in 1916 is gone. The mandate from the first Dáil is gone. Everyone who sat in it or voted in the elections are dead. It ratified the Proclamation and declared independence yes, but it was then defeated and crushed.The good guys lost, and not for the first time.

    Documents such as the Proclamation and the Democratic program of the first Dáil should not be treated as gospel, or things which define or limit republican socialism. The Irish Republic declared in 1916 was not the first one declared. Republics were declared in 1798, 1803 and 1867. These did not utterly dominate and limit subsequent republican revolutionaries - each attempted revolution was a revolution of its day. Not one of a hundred years before, despite the general arguments and ideas being similar. These declarations and assorted documents merely served as inspiration and templates. They were an evolution, and its wrong to treat the documents and writings of the 1916 revolutionary period as the zenith of republican thought. It is forever a work in progress.

    1916 was almost a hundred years ago. Todays generation treat it as history, not something which is relevant to their day to day lives today. It doesn't capture the imagination beyond being a mere tale of heroism, like a film or book. The parallels, unfinished business and echoes of life today in that time should be but footnotes, not the main thrust of argument from revolutionary republicans.

    The past should be a reference, a guide, inspiration - the work should be towards building and arguing for a new Republic, a new living, breathing country - one obviously relevant to the struggles the masses of today have, in a language they understand - rather than attempts at resurrecting one which died.

    Republicans also need to accept that they have lost the struggle of the past half century or so - militarily and propaganda wise too. The "Brits Out" aspiration, while an admirable, worthy goal should not be the main thrust of argument - people are conditioned to be repelled at that. Instead of briefly mentioning the IMF, Troika and other associated capitalist colonial and imperialist tools as a footnote and parallel to British imperialism it should be the main thrust of argument as it is clear to the general public the damage and wrongs they are doing today. There is not the same moralistic clouds of hand-wringing over that as there is about British imperialism. Continuing the way things are going will mean that by and large only the initiated - a few supporters of broadly nationalist parties will ever be persuaded to support, or at least see the need for, a revolution. Focusing on the IMF and the forces that are ruling Europe and how to combat against this will widen the gene pool. Once initiated it can easily be explained to them how British imperialism in Ireland is the exact same and must be removed also. Make the easy sell first.
    Can we make this a blog post Cass? Fantastic writing.

    Just to address the last part of your post in relation to Republicans accepting they have lost the struggle of the past century or so. Many Republicans on here would see the issue as being one of simply sectarianism, the British identity vs the Irish identity myopic as its too simplistic a vew and does not focus on the over all issues i.e. class division which is the root cause of British imperialism. Falkland Islands, India, Pakistan, African colonies all have in common the British went after the resources in the pursuit of financial gain. Rhodesia as it was known then had their mines plundered and tobacco and tea was exported from India as the British sought quick profit. Imperialism resulted from a lot of this and can be described as a cover for the class divisions which the British implemented. India is in a similar situation in a way to NI, both Hindus and Muslims represent that NI divide.
    Last edited by C. Flower; 22-03-2013 at 08:24 PM.
    History is the only true teacher, the revolution the best school for the proletariat - Rosa Luxembourg

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Quote Originally Posted by fluffybiscuits View Post
    Can we make this a blog post Cass? Fantastic writing.

    Just to address the last part of your post in relation to Republicans accepting they have lost the struggle of the past century or so. Many Republicans on here would see the issue as being one of simply sectarianism, the British identity vs the Irish identity myopic as its too simplistic a vew and does not focus on the over all issues i.e. class division which is the root cause of British imperialism. Falkland Islands, India, Pakistan, African colonies all have in common the British went after the resources in the pursuit of financial gain. Rhodesia as it was known then had their mines plundered and tobacco and tea was exported from India as the British sought quick profit. Imperialism resulted from a lot of this and can be described as a cover for the class divisions which the British implemented. India is in a similar situation in a way to NI, both Hindus and Muslims represent that NI divide.
    Cheers.

    Blogged it myself: http://theunitedirishman.blogspot.ie...soners-of.html but if people think it's a good idea I have no problem with it going up on the political world blog too.

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    Default Re: RNU Launch New Policy Document: "Revolutionary Republicansim"

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan View Post
    More and more I come to understand that too many socialists are as philosophically committed to corporate globalisation- whether it be under the banner of Coca-Cola or Leninism. The effects would be likely to be the same.
    I think this is essentially an astute point. I would agree that many on the "left" have bought into globilisation in a big way and this is reflected in their positions although they present it wrapped in some sort of ultra left garb. It is like the position you hear being espoused that the correct position on the EU is to work for a socialist Europe. What it boils down to essentially is that they have bought into the EU project (and like the idea of seats in the EU parliament etc.) when a working class perspective demands the destruction of this instrument of the European monopolists.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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