Reconciling Republican Left and Other Socialist Views

[fluffybiscuits]

http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/Re...tOnEirigi.html

To me, it is Irish Trotskyism that is the creature of fantasy and socialist-republicanism which is the creature of logic. Republicanism in its left forms has had many false starts, for sure. But it has *started*. There is the skeleton of a tradition of socialist-republicanism. The problem for Irish Trotskyism is that it has never been able to sink any real, lasting roots in the Irish masses. In my view, it is never going to – the reason being that the bulk of the Irish working class is republican (with a small r) and the ‘lower orders’ in Ireland have been, in their majority, republican (small r) for a good 200 years.

Piece that was sent to me today . Republicanism has failed twice on two occasions to really get off the ground both in 1798 and in 1916 when it was beaten resoundly by imperialist armies. In 1798 the whole point was to 'break the connection with the English', a statement of intent that was more aimed at nationalist principles rather that was followed by the 1916 rising witha a similar aim. Connolly with his history of Republicanism and his history of involement in the trade union movement makes him an ideal candidate for a man whose aims we should look to if we were to bridge the gap between Republicanism and Socialism (perhaps dare say Trotskyism) as he came to believe in the second International and was an active member of said organisation. Republicanism is still struggling along with Socialism in the current Irish political scene (FF are the next top dog according to opinion polls) but internationally, worker led movements from Turkey,South Africa and across the world stage are seeing more and more people rise up, what have been the Republican equivelants around the world?

[Jolly Red Giant]

what have been the Republican equivelants around the world?

The ANC

[fluffybiscuits]

The ANC

And what a job they did on poverty....

http://ccs.ukzn.ac.za/files/g%C3%87B__.pdf

Rates of poverty rising amongst the working class....

[Sam Lord]

http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/Re...tOnEirigi.html

In my view, SD has far and away the best politics of the ostensibly Marxist left in Ireland, but that hasn’t helped them at all; they are far smaller than they were 30 years ago, when they were PD, and there’s no sign of that changing. I think SD would be better dissolving and its members joining éirígí. Not as some kind of entryist project, and not to push Trotskyism. But to participate honestly as genuine comrades in the building of a genuinely revolutionary movement, one that has some chance of success.

Alarming that he is advocating this. It would be the kiss of death for éirígí to have Trotskyites joining up.

[fluffybiscuits]

Alarming that he is advocating this. It would be the kiss of death for éirígí to have Trotskyites joining up.

Im not sure Trotskyists would lower their standards for it to happen Sam....

[Sam Lord]

The ANC

Your fixation with South Africa appears to have lead to the abandonment of all logic.

[fluffybiscuits]

Your fixation with South Africa appears to have lead to the abandonment of all logic.

Is being irrelevant a profession for you or just a hobby Sam?.....

[Sam Lord]

Im not sure Trotskyists would lower their standards for it to happen Sam....

I'll add it to the list of things you are unsure about.

[fluffybiscuits]

I'll add it to the list of things you are unsure about.

Unsure about your ability to post, your modding, your contributions...there are a lot of things Im quite unsure about...good thing they all concern your good self

[Sam Lord]

Is being irrelevant a profession for you or just a hobby Sam?.....

Oh look, someone just had another random though ...

[fluffybiscuits]

Oh look, someone just had another random though ...

random though?

Don't get lost in thought you'll be a total stranger there.....

[Sam Lord]

http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/Re...tOnEirigi.html

Debate continued here:

http://theirishrevolution.wordpress....hilip-ferguson

I would think that socialist-republicanism is somewhat more specific than Trotskyism. There is sufficient agreement, for instance, among socialist-republicans in Ireland for a merger of them to take place, should they be prepared to take such an initiative. Certainly more agreement than there appears to be among Trotskyists such as SP and SWP who couldn’t stay even in a coalition for more than a couple of years, and even that rather half-heartedly, let alone build a common party.

In Russia, the Bolsheviks supplanted narodnism in a couple of decades. There’s no sign at all of Trotskyism replacing republicanism in Ireland.

To me, Trotskyism in Ireland always seemed like some odd plant that could just never take root in the soil. On the other hand, republicanism, no matter what was done to it from within (selling out) or from without (repression by the various state forces on the island) continually regenerated itself, continually produced outstanding revolutionary fighters and political activists. It is the revolutionary tradition in Ireland, has been for a bit over 200 years, and nothing else, no other “ism” of any kind has come anywhere close to that. Republicanism itself, however, has also been clearly revealed to be insufficient. Socialist-republicanism, on the other hand, is the truly revolutionary form, and the one that can win.

[fluffybiscuits]

The Socialist Party would not be as much Trotskyist as the SWP, that post inferred to me that the SP was solely Trotksyist (minor point but important to mention none the less). The difference between socialism and Republicanism is that both recognise the imperialism that we face but the latter fails to recognise the class divisions that exist or in this Republican/Socialist hybrid, the viewpoint tends to be more so imperialistic (which I have no disagreement with). My evidence for this? Look at the headlines in An Phoblacht. The first five headlines - British government knew about rubber bullets being lethal against civilians (imperialist), Dail debate bill on property tax (class issue),Orange order parade (imperialist issue),Iain Banks obituary (irrelevant to discussion) and something on the garda presence on Ruairi O Bradaigh (imperialist - considering its about a man who fought for a UI). This is the problem for me with Republicanism, the obsession with imperialism as the sole cause and when socialist traditions embraced it tends to focus more on imperialist issues. The third paragraph in the passage you highlighted, revolutionary fighters ? Thats a debatable point but that is also a central focus on Trotskyism too but the approach was different. A republican revolution would over throw the British, join back up with Ireland then what? There is no real economic focus but Trotskyism focuses on more long term empowerment of the people and reviving an ailing economy that is based around the needs of the working class...

[tomasocarthaigh]

I would prefer if all mentions of 'class' were removed from the political discourse TBH. In any event those from the PUL community place their British nationality and ethnicity above unity with their fellow working man from the Irish community. This will not change for any foreseeable future unless the issues of nation-hood and identity are firmly put to bed.

An independent NI within a federal EU is probably the only realistic solution in the long term. Put in place a truly equitable pan-European constitutional framework, THEN move forward trying to build a equal, progressive society.

No United Kingdom.
No United Europe
Only a United Ireland.

imho!!!! ;-D

[fluffybiscuits]

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol...today/ch7.html

“The claim that we supported the tactic of armed struggle is wrong and most probably designed to win cheap support from forces to the right of both the SWP and the SP – we have consistently attacked the armed struggle as counterproductive and helped to initiate labour movement demonstrations which opened the way to peace,

At the outset we explained the reasons for the emergence of the Provisional IRA in the early 1970s. The factors which gave the Provisionals a mass base of support among the Catholic working class youth were the apparent failure of mass action, in the form of the civil rights movement, to deliver real change; brutal repression by the army and police, especially internment and Bloody Sunday; the poverty endemic in Catholic areas; and finally the failure of the labour movement to offer any alternative means of fighting back