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Thread: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

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    Default Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    The exposure of Jimmy Saville's awful history of abuse, facilitated at every turn it seems by a blind eye by the BBC, by the police and by people running hospitals and child detention centres, has shaken the dust off other possible suppressed investigations.

    Always as well to be wary of hysteria and witch hunts in these situations, but the report in the Mirror yesterday, on a paedophile brothel being operated in the 1980s in London, with that caveat, seems to be serious.

    There seems to be a lot in common with Kincora, as the victims were very vulnerable boys from detention centres and the alleged perpetrators wealthy and powerful people.

    A list of names seized by police probing allegations of child abuse includes ministers, members of the royal household and a world-famous pop star, the Sunday People can reveal. All were recorded as visitors to a suburban guest house that operated as a gay brothel.

    Nine officers raided the North London home of former child protection worker Mary Moss after she initially declined to co-operate with the investigation.Documents and a laptop were seized. Ms Moss later handed over a further 19 files she had hidden in a neighbour’s shed.
    The papers include a list of men who went to sex parties in the 80s at the Elm Guest House, Barnes, South West London. Among the names are two former Conservative Cabinet ministers and four other senior Tories.There is also a Labour MP, a prominent Irish republican and a leading National Front member.

    Others on the handwritten note are two members of the royal household – one a former Buckingham Palace employee – plus the owner of a multinational company and two pop stars....
    Other documents seized are believed to identify 16 boys who were allegedly trafficked to the guest house from local care homes. Police have asked Richmond Council for a full list of children in care at the time.

    Officers will also be examining copies of cash receipts and *the guest house’s visitor records. Operation Fernbridge is investigating claims that boys who were in council care were brought to the Elm to be sexually abused by bigwigs and VIPs.

    ...Twelve boys then told police they had been abused by men in the house but complaints were not pursued. The only prosecution in the wake of the raid resulted in Kasir being convicted of keeping a brothel. Campaigners believe she did not know of the child abuse until shortly before she reported it in 1988.

    It appears a 2003 probe into activities at the Elm also fizzled out. Now Operation Fernbridge may be on the verge of bringing offenders to justice. It was triggered by a speech Tom Watson made in the House of Commons.
    He told MPs there was “clear intelligence” of an abuse network of powerful men with influence at the highest level – in Parliament and even in Downing Street.

    A lot of it was gathered in the 1992 investigation into paedophile Peter Righton.
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...n-dawn-1546351
    Last edited by C. Flower; 20-01-2013 at 09:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    The problem is that, if such a list exists, they might just be gay people who went somewhere for an outlet for their homosexuality (at a time when homosexual people were disgracefully treated and pushed into hiding), rather than anyone involved in a paedophile ring.

    I really don't like where this whole Savile investigation is going - it smacks of a witch-hunt designed to over-compensate for the failures of the authorities in the Savile case. Jim Davidson, Max Clifford, and others have been arrested and named by police yet have nothing to do with paedophile rings. Not only that, they were arrested as publicly as possible, with the press tipped off in advance. This is entirely wrong to me. I feel that there is potentially a great abuse of due process taking place here and that the police should be ashamed of themselves.
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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by toxic avenger View Post
    The problem is that, if such a list exists, they might just be gay people who went somewhere for an outlet for their homosexuality (at a time when homosexual people were disgracefully treated and pushed into hiding), rather than anyone involved in a paedophile ring.

    I really don't like where this whole Savile investigation is going - it smacks of a witch-hunt designed to over-compensate for the failures of the authorities in the Savile case. Jim Davidson, Max Clifford, and others have been arrested and named by police yet have nothing to do with paedophile rings. Not only that, they were arrested as publicly as possible, with the press tipped off in advance. This is entirely wrong to me. I feel that there is potentially a great abuse of due process taking place here and that the police should be ashamed of themselves.
    Yes, I agree with you about the "celebrity arrests" and over-compensation. The BBC has already got itself into serious trouble over that.

    And sensationalist police leaks are sleazy and self serving.

    However, from this article, it is alleged that young boys who were in care may have been coerced into this, and if true, that is not something that could be justified as an "outlet" for anyone.

    It is too soon to know what substance of any there is in this, and it was because of the similarity to Kincora that I think it worth following.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McGrath
    Last edited by C. Flower; 20-01-2013 at 09:14 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    Sexual abuse of male children by adult men is often referred to as "homosexual molestation." The adjective "homosexual" (or "heterosexual" when a man abuses a female child) refers to the victim's gender in relation to that of the perpetrator. Unfortunately, people sometimes mistakenly interpret it as referring to the perpetrator's sexual orientation.

    To avoid this confusion, it is preferable to refer to men's sexual abuse of boys with the more accurate label of male-male molestation. Similarly, it is preferable to refer to men's abuse of girls as male-female molestation. These labels are more accurate because they describe the sex of the individuals involved but don't implicitly convey unwarranted assumptions about the perpetrator's sexual orientation.
    Sexual abuse by women occurs but has not been well documented. Perhaps it is not surprising, therefore, that the child molester stereotype is applied more often to gay men than to lesbians
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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    The blind eye that was turned to Jimmy Saville's behaviour would indicate that the facilitating of his behaviour could be just the tip of the iceberg. The UK is a very class ridden society where the connected may have been as untouchable there as the Clergy once were in Ireland.

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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by toxic avenger View Post
    The problem is that, if such a list exists, they might just be gay people who went somewhere for an outlet for their homosexuality (at a time when homosexual people were disgracefully treated and pushed into hiding), rather than anyone involved in a paedophile ring.

    I really don't like where this whole Savile investigation is going - it smacks of a witch-hunt designed to over-compensate for the failures of the authorities in the Savile case. Jim Davidson, Max Clifford, and others have been arrested and named by police yet have nothing to do with paedophile rings. Not only that, they were arrested as publicly as possible, with the press tipped off in advance. This is entirely wrong to me. I feel that there is potentially a great abuse of due process taking place here and that the police should be ashamed of themselves.
    What do you call homosexuals who molest kids, if not paedophile. Could you explain ?.
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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaadi View Post
    The blind eye that was turned to Jimmy Saville's behaviour would indicate that the facilitating of his behaviour could be just the tip of the iceberg. The UK is a very class ridden society where the connected may have been as untouchable there as the Clergy once were in Ireland.
    Yes, Savile was treated like a kind of pseudo-priest in the UK's secular society, with his weird clothes and heavy chains, lack of a partner, auro of fake goodness with control of charities and hob nobbing with the establishment.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Tully View Post
    What do you call homosexuals who molest kids, if not paedophile. Could you explain ?.
    No, not what I meant. The report describes the place as a gay brothel. It might just be that some on the purported list were there for adult homosexual liaisons, nothing to do with children. I don't know, but given what has gone on with the McAlpine affair, I'm just loathe to jump to conclusions.
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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Yes, Savile was treated like a kind of pseudo-priest in the UK's secular society, with his weird clothes and heavy chains, lack of a partner, auro of fake goodness with control of charities and hob nobbing with the establishment.
    Seriously though, all those smarmy sleazy attention/power crazy types have always given me the creeps, you can just smell the dodginess off them. I can think of a few modern celebs that fit the bill, with the iron grip they have on the papers it's unlikely that we'll ever find out if they are or not..

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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by toxic avenger View Post
    No, not what I meant. The report describes the place as a gay brothel. It might just be that some on the purported list were there for adult homosexual liaisons, nothing to do with children. I don't know, but given what has gone on with the McAlpine affair, I'm just loathe to jump to conclusions.
    Yes, I agree about being very careful. The "Savile" investigations covered a lot of people who had never even met Savile. Police are very media conscious and can spin and hype with the best when drunk with attention or looking for promotions.

    Anthony Blunt's name is drawn in to this and to Kincora. He's dead, and low in rep due to spying, so the press can say anything with impunity.

    If people were molested/injured in this, then their interests need to be served first and foremost. That means respect for their situation, and acknowledging what happened and dealing with it within the law, and without hysteria, imo.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    From what I've seen I think Savile was part of a highly placed paedophile ring. Its hopeful that the police are at last beginning to deal with it. So many names have been mentioned but relatively few charges and no big names but it is getting really interesting now,

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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by bernadette View Post
    From what I've seen I think Savile was part of a highly placed paedophile ring. Its hopeful that the police are at last beginning to deal with it. So many names have been mentioned but relatively few charges and no big names but it is getting really interesting now,
    Not only a highly placed paedofile ring, but an international one at that. An investigation into the action of Mr. Dutroux in Belgium and the famous "Zandvoort" ring started throwing up names of a good few people in high places, with a lot more than circumstantial evidence. The investigation was stopped at the orders of high ranking officials in Belgium, and one of the whistle blowers was in fact jailed and only released recently, after public pressure.
    That investigation reached as far as the UK, France, Germany, The Netherlands and the USA. It implicated high ranking police officers, politicians (even a prime minister), a good few aristocrats (living and otherwise), and government run organisations using the "ring" to gain "valuable information"...

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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by toxic avenger View Post
    No, not what I meant. The report describes the place as a gay brothel. It might just be that some on the purported list were there for adult homosexual liaisons, nothing to do with children. I don't know, but given what has gone on with the McAlpine affair, I'm just loathe to jump to conclusions.
    What do you know about the 'McAlpine affair' other than what you've read in the tame-stream media - there is more to that story than is published.

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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephilant View Post
    Not only a highly placed paedofile ring, but an international one at that. An investigation into the action of Mr. Dutroux in Belgium and the famous "Zandvoort" ring started throwing up names of a good few people in high places, with a lot more than circumstantial evidence. The investigation was stopped at the orders of high ranking officials in Belgium, and one of the whistle blowers was in fact jailed and only released recently, after public pressure.
    That investigation reached as far as the UK, France, Germany, The Netherlands and the USA. It implicated high ranking police officers, politicians (even a prime minister), a good few aristocrats (living and otherwise), and government run organisations using the "ring" to gain "valuable information"...
    Yes I think that is the way of it, there was and may still be a huge and very powerful paedophile ring.

    My hope is that most of the members are retired or dead and so the ring may no longer be as powerful and we will get the truth.

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    Default Re: Kincora on Thames ? Elite Abuse Ring Cover Up Investigated

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew49 View Post
    What do you know about the 'McAlpine affair' other than what you've read in the tame-stream media - there is more to that story than is published.

    LINK
    I don't really get the point of your post - you link to a poorly-written page which repeats stuff that was widely reported at the time as if it were 'revelation'. I followed this story all along (including, by the way, warning, on the very afternoon before the Newsnight broadcast, on this very site, that the BBC were potentially destroying their reputation if, as I suspected, they were hastily over-compensating for Savile with a witch-hunt).

    Did I know that Steve Messham was mistaken but clearly a genuine victim? Yes. (And, by the way, I think what you call the 'tamestream media' were actually pretty sympathetic towards his mistake, by and large).

    Did I know that he possibly confused McAlpine with a relative? Yes.

    Has any of that got any relevance whatsoever to the point I made? None at all.
    Last edited by toxic avenger; 21-01-2013 at 02:19 PM.
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