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Thread: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

  1. #2401
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker
    is there anything the US or any other country could do that you believe would truly help Syria?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    Yes. Get the h*ll out.

    -AMH-
    I am dropping the same answer i wrote in response to Saoirse cos I don't think you read it and it answers your quip above.

    -/-

    there was NO effort in the US to remove Assad bc Obama was not exactly fond of the 'regime change' concept. And that became obvious after the 2013 Sarin attack, when Obama stated Assad crossed a red line and then went to Congress to ask for support to Act in Syria, which was immediately shut down by Republicans;

    on the other hand Obama had no desire to get involved in Syria and always stated clearly there would be NO Boots on the Ground (which was necessary back then to control the situation as advocated by ME foreign policy experts).

    After that episode (as I recall) Obama strategy was to to partially-disengage and give the powers in the ME more room to operate between themselves as there is popular support in the US for disengagement if/when possible. (Trump's election also proves that a large proportion of the American electorate do not want to be engaged in overseas wars)...

    -/-
    in light of the above you want to speculate as re disengagement of the US from the Middle East and the mass murdering that is going on over there since 2013 ?... cos no matter how hard you/CF try to pin Syria war on the US what the rest of the world can see is that the US partial disengagement in 2013 led to MORE killing. Not less.

  2. #2402
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    @SamLord Without quoting the whole of that lengthy post above, I would just like to point out that AMH did not say that Le Mesurier, founder of the White Helmets, worked for Blackwater.
    Le Mesurier is a former (or at least ostensibly former) mercenary from the Blackwater world
    Le Mesurier certainly sells himself as having come from that 'murky world' of military contracting. http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/the-most-dangerous-job-in-the-world-syrias-elite-rescue-force-20141210

    He trained several thousand citizens to become the oil and gas field protection force for the UAE, designed security infrastructure for Abu Dhabi — "everything from the potential of sea-level rise to political uprisings, **** you just don't think of, so you're sitting down with futurists in New York talking about what the world will be like in 30 years" — and ensured the safety of the 2010 Gulf Cup in Yemen, a regional soccer tournament held in the midst of fears of a potential Al Qaeda uprising. But eventually Le Mesurier became dissatisfied and wanted to make a more direct impact on the communities he was working in. "At the end of the day, that market is about guys with guns," he says
    Le Mesurier "served his country" in the North of Ireland. There was a J Le Mesurier in the British Army in Afghanistan in the 19th century. These people are the hard core of front line imperialism.

    So why write such a long post denying it, and accusing AMH of vitriol, without even checking if he is correct or not ? Logical is it ???

    From where do most people get their information on the White Helmets?

    A UK government £5.3 million media activists programme included assisting the reporting of "White Helmets" activities across Twitter and Facebook.[51]
    This article, linked below, by Scott Ritter, appears to be a balanced view - yes, there are many courageous rescues and - yes, the White Helmets are used to serve a pro-war Western agenda.

    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...olicy_20161005
    Last edited by C. Flower; 19-04-2017 at 10:44 PM.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  3. #2403
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    James le Mesurier was working for ARK when he set up the White Helmets.

    The CEO of ARK Alistair Harris has a long 'diplomatic' history in every conflict zone the British have messed around in, including of course the North of Ireland.

    This Foreign Policy article shows how ARK played a role based in Turkey from 2012 or earlier in implementing US State Department programmes to support anti-Assad opposition activists (who were then totally let down of course).
    U.S. efforts to organize Syria's opposition also appear to be receiving help from the British. A Washington-based Syria analyst told Foreign Policy that OSOS was set up with funding from the State Department with the assistance of a Beirut-based consultancy firm called Pursue Ltd. Alistair Harris, Pursue's director, is a former British diplomat known for his work canvassing extremist groups in Palestinian camps in Beirut, the analyst said. Harris has also written a policy paper on al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
    An article in the British newspaper the Daily Telegraph initially described Harris as "a British political consultant overseeing the [nonlethal aid] programme." It was later edited to omit his name.
    Via email, Harris denied that Pursue is "undertaking any activities relating to the Syrian opposition on behalf of the U.S. or any other project partner." However, he admitted his personal involvement in the program, writing that he is "involved in US assistance programming, but not through Pursue."
    A second office, run by a companycalled Access Research Knowledge (ARK), has been opened a short walk from OSOS. There, another British consultant oversees a number of employees of various Western and Arab nationalities. When Foreign Policy visited the ARK office, at least two employees knew Harris by name.
    At least one employee is involved with Pursue, and activists said it is acting as an advisor and intermediary for funding from "Friends of Syria" countries to the Syrian opposition. ARK also provides funds and consulting to a new opposition media outlet founded by a group of liberal-minded Syrian activists called BasmaSyria.
    A State Department spokesperson described ARK as "an implementing partner" of the U.S. nonlethal-aid program.
    "ARK is currently undertaking activities to support the nonviolent Syrian opposition and Syrian civil society," the spokesperson said. "Project activities involving hundreds of beneficiaries have taken place in Syria and neighboring states since the onset of the Syrian crisis. It shares the inclusive vision of a future Syria for all Syrians where the rule of law is applied equally and the people of Syria are represented by a legitimate, responsive, and democratically elected government."
    The activists themselves see the projects as a way to get their message out to the world more effectively.
    - See more at: http://www.defenddemocracy.org/media....mpntMSFP.dpuf
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  4. #2404
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Lets just have a close look at what is being said here. It's worth it because it is a good example of the style of the "left" which has abandoned Marxism for prejudice, conspiracy and all sorts of lunacy.

    (..)

    As if someone needed to stage death and destruction being meted out by the regime when the place is swamped in it. As if the US actually wanted to overthrow Assad.

    It is astonishing the amount of vitrol that is heaped on people who are doing nothing but trying to save people buried under buildings bombed by the regime and the Russians while there is no vitriol reserved for (and even sneaking support given to) those relentlessly killing civilians.

    The amount of people who have entirely lost their moral compass does not bode well for the future of humanity.
    I agree with a lot of what you say above but at this point i'd like to hear your/others opinions on how you would go about mitigating the problem

    despite obvious ideological differences I think we all agree on the basics

    it may be more productive for the discussion if instead of going down descriptive laundry lists of why Assay is bad (Sam) and why ISIS and Co is even worse (AMH) and funded by the US (CF) why don't you guys crank it up a notch to the next level, to the level of true critical thinking, now that we are fully convinced that neither Assad nor the Rebels are viable governing alternatives, take this challenge and tell us how you envision a solution.

    This is a challenge to everyone that considers the problem from a geopolitical point of view, give us a proposal !! what items on a list of many would you prioritize? etc

  5. #2405
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Fraxinus View Post
    Russia has imperialist ambitions. It was an imperial nation before the revolution and that tendency has never gone away.

    Reading a good book on the Balkans at the moment and the imperial ambitions of the big powers in the 19th C, setting the tone for future war's, are not all that different to what's happening in Syria today. The US was innocent in that instance but they've quickly come up to speed.
    Russia now and Russia in the 19th Century are simply not the same places. Things happened in between.

    Imperialism isn't just power grabbing and militarism. It's always been about the economic exploitation of elsewhere by the homeland. Was true for the Roman Empire and is true for our modern empires too-though now in our capitalist era the main way they do it is by exporting industrial capital to the Global South for cheap labor, finance capital invested abroad, etc. I do believe Ireland is on the receiving end of some of that?

    Capitalist Russia, unlike the USA, England, Japan etc. is just not constructed that way. It's a capitalist power erected on the wreckage of the USSR, so it works differently. Russia invests less capital abroad than India, Russian capitalism is highly domestic.

    The USA and other imperial powers are after the Middle East for the oil. Russia has plenty of its own oil, sure there are a few Russian-owned oilfields in Iraq now, but that's simply not what Russia in Syria is all about.

    At most, Putin would like to get back for Moscow the weight in the world and the influence over former Soviet republics that the Kremlin had back in the days of the USSR. There is little or no economic motivation for Putin's actions (excepting with Chechnya with its oil pipelines). So it's not an imperial power. In Ukraine, back when Putin's semi-friend was in charge, Russia was propping up the Ukrainian economy rather than looting it like the EU is doing now. Not out of benevolence, but for prestige reasons and Russian nationalism. Putin has made it clear that he has zero interest in annexing the Donbass, even though by now the great majority of the population there would be in favor.

    -AMH-

  6. #2406
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    James le Mesurier was working for ARK when he set up the White Helmets.

    The CEO of ARK Alistair Harris has a long 'diplomatic' history in every conflict zone the British have messed around in, including of course the North of Ireland.

    This Foreign Policy article shows how ARK played a role based in Turkey from 2012 or earlier in implementing US State Department programmes to support anti-Assad opposition activists (who were then totally let down of course).

    - See more at: http://www.defenddemocracy.org/media....mpntMSFP.dpuf

    His father had form too.......

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0494452/?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm
    As a general rule the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.

  7. #2407
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you say above but at this point i'd like to hear your/others opinions on how you would go about mitigating the problem

    despite obvious ideological differences I think we all agree on the basics

    it may be more productive for the discussion if instead of going down descriptive laundry lists of why Assay is bad (Sam) and why ISIS and Co is even worse (AMH) and funded by the US (CF) why don't you guys crank it up a notch to the next level, to the level of true critical thinking, now that we are fully convinced that neither Assad nor the Rebels are viable governing alternatives, take this challenge and tell us how you envision a solution.

    This is a challenge to everyone that considers the problem from a geopolitical point of view, give us a proposal !! what items on a list of many would you prioritize? etc
    There is only one answer to this actually quite legitimate question. World revolution against the powers that be, all of them. That is the first and last geopolitical priority right now. It is the precondition to any solution to any of the problems of the world.

    Sounds unrealistic? I hope not, as otherwise the world is doomed. That we are all slowly sliding down the road to Apocalypse should be obvious to anyone with their eyes open. Otherwise, the only question is whether the world will end with a nuclear bang or an ecological whimper. Or just explode into barbarism due to economic catastrophe not far around the corner.

    -AMH-

  8. #2408
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Bobulescu View Post
    No, I don't think that was his father -

    Born in Singapore and raised in England, he followed his father into the military, graduating at the top of his class from the prestigious Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and then joining the Royal Green Jackets — the U.K. equivalent of the U.S. Army Rangers. Le Mesurier was deployed in Northern Ireland and Kosovo
    This piece gives details of the founder of the White Helmet's time with "the Olive Group" a mercenary group with boots on the ground in Iraq, which subsequently merged with Blackwater/Alchemi under the name Constellis. All taking contracts for work too dirty for the US military to do.

    https://thewallwillfall.org/2015/10/...-of-deception/

    ARK was hired to set up the White Helmets. I'm not sure who the original client/s were, but we know that ARKS clients included the "Stabilisation" section of the State Department, which was active in working with the opposition in Libya prior to the overthrow of Gadaffi. ARK is also active in Libya, Yemen, Jordan and Bahrain, as well as Syria.

    https://www.facebook.com/LibyanInves...527278/?type=3

    The White Helments have consistently called for a No Fly Zone in Syria.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  9. #2409
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    I am dropping the same answer i wrote in response to Saoirse cos I don't think you read it and it answers your quip above.

    -/-

    there was NO effort in the US to remove Assad bc Obama was not exactly fond of the 'regime change' concept. And that became obvious after the 2013 Sarin attack, when Obama stated Assad crossed a red line and then went to Congress to ask for support to Act in Syria, which was immediately shut down by Republicans;

    on the other hand Obama had no desire to get involved in Syria and always stated clearly there would be NO Boots on the Ground (which was necessary back then to control the situation as advocated by ME foreign policy experts).

    After that episode (as I recall) Obama strategy was to to partially-disengage and give the powers in the ME more room to operate between themselves as there is popular support in the US for disengagement if/when possible. (Trump's election also proves that a large proportion of the American electorate do not want to be engaged in overseas wars)...

    -/-
    in light of the above you want to speculate as re disengagement of the US from the Middle East and the mass murdering that is going on over there since 2013 ?... cos no matter how hard you/CF try to pin Syria war on the US what the rest of the world can see is that the US partial disengagement in 2013 led to MORE killing. Not less.
    Obama was deeply conflicted and ineffective in his Syrian policies, but trying to deny that he wanted to get rid of Assad is silly. He was under the impression at first that he didn't have to do a whole lot for that as he thought Assad would go the way of the Egyptian and Tunisian dictators. And when it became clear that this was not the case, and that, with his help, the Syrian rebels had gone all Al Q'aida jihadi--he dithered, as he, unlike Hillary Clinton, really did not like the idea of Al Q'aida style jihadis in charge of an important country.

    The "red line" was a farce. Recall that even Clapper told him that there was no "slam dunk" as to Assad being responsible for the gas attack.

    So Putin got to play world statesman and peacemaker. That Putin's attitude to the whole 2013 Sarin thing was vastly more intelligent and responsible than Obama's, to say nothing of Hillary's, was obvious to anyone in the world who actually cared, damn few as it happens. Except in the Middle East.

    -AMH-

  10. #2410
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    ....

    Incidentally, the thesis of the article seems to be that the White Helmets were organised by the US (or the west .. who knows) and trained to stage and film incidents of them rushing to save people in order to justify US intervention to overthrow Assad. Here we are firmly back in tin foil hat territory ...
    That the White Helmets came out of the Western mercenary mercenary world and are funded by the US, UK, etc. has been well established in this discussion. You haven't even bothered to try to refute that really, just kvetched a little over details.

    And your continual claim that the US and its lackeys (the British poodle etc.) haven't been trying to overthrow Assad despite all public claims to the contrary, but secretly is perfectly happy for him to stay in power, that is truly tin foil hat stuff.

    -AMH-

  11. #2411
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    Russia now and Russia in the 19th Century are simply not the same places. Things happened in between.

    Imperialism isn't just power grabbing and militarism. It's always been about the economic exploitation of elsewhere by the homeland. Was true for the Roman Empire and is true for our modern empires too-though now in our capitalist era the main way they do it is by exporting industrial capital to the Global South for cheap labor, finance capital invested abroad, etc. I do believe Ireland is on the receiving end of some of that?

    Capitalist Russia, unlike the USA, England, Japan etc. is just not constructed that way. It's a capitalist power erected on the wreckage of the USSR, so it works differently. Russia invests less capital abroad than India, Russian capitalism is highly domestic.

    The USA and other imperial powers are after the Middle East for the oil. Russia has plenty of its own oil, sure there are a few Russian-owned oilfields in Iraq now, but that's simply not what Russia in Syria is all about.

    At most, Putin would like to get back for Moscow the weight in the world and the influence over former Soviet republics that the Kremlin had back in the days of the USSR. There is little or no economic motivation for Putin's actions (excepting with Chechnya with its oil pipelines). So it's not an imperial power. In Ukraine, back when Putin's semi-friend was in charge, Russia was propping up the Ukrainian economy rather than looting it like the EU is doing now. Not out of benevolence, but for prestige reasons and Russian nationalism. Putin has made it clear that he has zero interest in annexing the Donbass, even though by now the great majority of the population there would be in favor.

    -AMH-
    British imperialism in Ireland was primarily militaristic (it's not like we were blessed with resources), the agricultural benefits were an after thought. Doesn't make it it any less damaging to be colonised and/or manipulated for geo political purposes.

    I don't disagree that Russia is a different beast. There are similarities with how the Ottomans disintegrated and the exploitation of different ethnic/religious groups.

  12. #2412
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Fraxinus View Post
    British imperialism in Ireland was primarily militaristic (it's not like we were blessed with resources), the agricultural benefits were an after thought. Doesn't make it it any less damaging to be colonised and/or manipulated for geo political purposes.

    I don't disagree that Russia is a different beast. There are similarities with how the Ottomans disintegrated and the exploitation of different ethnic/religious groups.
    British imperialism in Ireland goes back before England was even a capitalist country by any reasonable measure, so what England did to Ireland is not exactly the same thing as modern capitalist powers exporting capital and lately indeed their entire industrial bases overseas seeking dirt cheap labor.

    But that doesn't mean that economics had nothing to do with it. English noble lords in Ireland all the way back to the thirteenth century were certainly squeezing their Irish serfs, and in more recent times there was "rack renting" by English landlords. And the Potato Famine had everything to do with English economic exploitation.

    Nowadays? England's relationship with Ireland is based on close to a millenium of history, and looking at the economics of it in the year 2017, and I have no idea what they are, hopefully some of you folk can educate me perhaps, is very short sighted.

    Back to Russia. The relationship between Czarist Russia, that "prisonhouse of peoples," and its neighbors and victims are totally different from those between Putin's Russia and its neighbors, economically and in every other way. The three quarters of a century of the Soviet Union totally transformed Russia. Even though it's gone back to capitalism, it still is a completely different place.

    -AMH-

  13. #2413
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    There is only one answer to this actually quite legitimate question. World revolution against the powers that be, all of them. That is the first and last geopolitical priority right now. It is the precondition to any solution to any of the problems of the world.

    Sounds unrealistic? I hope not, as otherwise the world is doomed. That we are all slowly sliding down the road to Apocalypse should be obvious to anyone with their eyes open. Otherwise, the only question is whether the world will end with a nuclear bang or an ecological whimper. Or just explode into barbarism due to economic catastrophe not far around the corner.

    -AMH-
    i see only you took me up on the challenge - the other two don't have much to add other than their descriptive lists on who's the 'baddest ass' -

    so, you propose "World-Wide Revolution"?

    i suppose you may be on to something. ... let's Demolish all we have got : Trump started it already, you may get your wish sooner rather than later and when people go back to having to worry about basics such as putting food on the table, then, and only then, you/others will understand how good they had it before (that is now) ...

    take a look at the ongoing 'Revolutionary" left-winger Maduro development's in Venezuela and tell me how desperate are you to join them in the fight?

  14. #2414
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by A Marxist Historian View Post
    Obama was deeply conflicted and ineffective in his Syrian policies, but trying to deny that he wanted to get rid of Assad is silly.
    Obama tried hard to make room for the folks in the ME to have it their way. Of course Obama knew what Assad was up to and he knew the alternative was no good, but really over here in the US I never read anything on credible sources that would have led me to think Obama wanted to get rid of Assad... what he wanted was for them to Figure It Out.


    So Putin got to play world statesman and peacemaker.
    LOL the idea of Putin the statesman and the peacemaker is adorabs...


    That Putin's attitude to the whole 2013 Sarin thing was vastly more intelligent and responsible than Obama's, to say nothing of Hillary's, was obvious to anyone in the world who actually cared, damn few as it happens. Except in the Middle East.

    -AMH-
    break that last one for me cos I missed how Putin did so well back then ....

  15. #2415
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    Default Re: Prospect of Invasion of Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by random new yorker View Post
    Obama tried hard to make room for the folks in the ME to have it their way. Of course Obama knew what Assad was up to and he knew the alternative was no good, but really over here in the US I never read anything on credible sources that would have led me to think Obama wanted to get rid of Assad... what he wanted was for them to Figure It Out.

    LOL the idea of Putin the statesman and the peacemaker is adorabs... break that last one for me cos I missed how Putin did so well back then ....
    All those public statements by Obama that Assad Has To Go seem to indicate pretty strongly that, as far as Obama was concerned, Assad Has To Go. Unlike some people, I actually do think that what Obama says in public sometimes at least has a relationship to what he thinks.

    And, of course, the position of the Obama administration in all international negotiations, except during his last year by which it became untenable, was that Assad could not continue on as President in any negotiated settlement. That is even clearer evidence.

    And yes, when Obama virtually tripped over his own red line into Bush Jr.'s Iraq war all over again this time in Syria, Putin, with his chemical weapons agreement, certainly by all the traditional standards of world leadership in international relations that you for one are fond of, probably deserved a Nobel peace prize.

    Not mine. I am not too fond of Nobel peace prizes. I have always thought it was quite appropriate that Alfred Nobel was a war profiteer munitions manufacture. And some of those prizewinners, Obama included, should really have gotten the Nobel war profiteer prize instead. I've always respected Ho Chi Minh for turning down the prize, which he was supposed to share with ... Henry Kissinger?

    -AMH-

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