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Thread: The Congo-an ongoing Colonisation.

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Congo 1961 - TG4 Series on the Irish Army Role

    And then there was Dag Hammarskjold.
    Exactly 50 years ago, UN Secretary General Dag Hammarskjold died in a plane crash on a mission to prevent civil war in newly independent Congo. Suspicions that the plane was shot down, never fully laid to rest, are now again on the rise.

    After his death, Mr Hammarskjold was described by US President John F Kennedy as the "greatest statesman of our century". He was a man with a vision of the UN as a "dynamic instrument" organising the world community, a protector of small nations, independent of the major powers, acting only in the interests of peace
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14913456

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Congo 1961 - TG4 Series on the Irish Army Role

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    After Lumumba was murdered by the oh so civilised US and Belgium, they had
    thirty years of a US backed dictator, followed by invasion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democra...c_of_the_Congo

    And 24 trillion of unexploited minerals -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_...ural_resources
    Lovely stuff, but the international community isn't entirely at fault. A large part of the problem is the fact Congo is split among hundreds of different, historically warring factions. Warlords and tribes butchering each other is one of the biggest problem facing much of sub-Saharan Africa. The "West" isn't entirely culpable for Africa's woes.

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    Default Re: Congo 1961 - TG4 Series on the Irish Army Role

    Quote Originally Posted by Dojo View Post
    Lovely stuff, but the international community isn't entirely at fault. A large part of the problem is the fact Congo is split among hundreds of different, historically warring factions. Warlords and tribes butchering each other is one of the biggest problem facing much of sub-Saharan Africa. The "West" isn't entirely culpable for Africa's woes.
    That could be someone in England talking about Ireland.

    You do know how it came to be that African states cut across communal boundaries ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa



    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Congo 1961 - TG4 Series on the Irish Army Role

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    That could be someone in England talking about Ireland.

    You do know how it came to be that African states cut across communal boundaries ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa



    I'm well aware of how Africa was carved up, hence why much of the continent is in such a dismal state today. However Africans themselves have to assume some of the responsibility for their situation. Placing the blame 100% on the West is beyond ridiculous, would you not agree?

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    Default Re: Congo 1961 - TG4 Series on the Irish Army Role

    Quote Originally Posted by Dojo View Post
    I'm well aware of how Africa was carved up, hence why much of the continent is in such a dismal state today. However Africans themselves have to assume some of the responsibility for their situation. Placing the blame 100% on the West is beyond ridiculous, would you not agree?
    Much less so than blaming rape victims for being raped, or mugging victims for being mugged.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Congo 1961 - TG4 Series on the Irish Army Role

    Tis easy to blame former possessors for everything and anything as we know but still, conflicts that followed much of the withdrawals were surely shaped by imperialism as much as anything else. The different forms of occupation favoured by each individual power is very interesting and the particular mark they left behind depending on who was running the show. See how many English colonies ended up in civil war after a few generations of divided and rule etc. Also does anyone think he headline stuff like atrocities, important as they are, often obscure the business end of things in the public mind. The East India Company for example is a blueprint still followed. One that continues to be refined even.

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    Default Re: Congo 1961 - TG4 Series on the Irish Army Role

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Much less so than blaming rape victims for being raped, or mugging victims for being mugged.
    A silly, and altogether insulting analogy. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Congo 1961 - TG4 Series on the Irish Army Role

    Quote Originally Posted by Dojo View Post
    In fairness most of Africa, the ME and Latin America was a big playground for the superpowers and their allies, many countries have now gotten past civil wars and the like and are, reasonably, stable. Why is the Congo such a depressing, war ridden sh!thole?
    Why Africa lags behind other parts of Asia and Latin America is to do with integration into the world capitalist system and the period and manner in which this was done. Capitalism does not develop uniformly and all these places had a very different economic history and experiance of colonialism. As bad as it was, for example, for the people of Manchuria, Taiwan and Korea living under Japanese rule at least the Japanese were concerned to develop industry in these places which would contrast with the approach of the Europeans to Africa. The Congo was just turned into a vast slave labour camp for the production of rubber. This is just one example. The point I'm making is that all these places had entirely different historical experiences which need to be studied carefully in terms of how their economise were transformed under imperialism and integrated into the world capitalist system. Rough and ready comparisons will reveal nothing though it suits some peoples prejudices to engage in them.

    Why Congo in particular may be worse than the rest of Africa ( "a depressing, war ridden sh!thole" is how you describe it) is again probably rooted in its particular history which apart from the economic questions was extremely brutal and traumatic one. Some ten million people were killed there by the Belgiums in a matter of a few decades.


    From 1885 to 1908, it is estimated that the Congolese native population decreased by about ten million people. Historian Adam Hochshild identifies a number of causes for this loss under Leopold’s reign—murder, starvation, exhaustion and exposure, disease, and plummeting birth rates. Congolese historian Ndaywel e Nziem estimates the death toll at thirteen million. Leopold capitalized on the vast wealth extracted in ivory and rubber during his twenty-three year reign of terror in the CFS. He spent some of this wealth by constructing grand palaces and monuments including the Royal Museum for Central Africa in Tervuren. Ironically, Leopold never visited the kingdom in which he committed such atrocities, to witness the tragedy of his greed.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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    Default Re: Congo 1961 - TG4 Series on the Irish Army Role

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Could this not be merged with the Congo/central Africa thread??

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    Default Re: Congo 1961 - TG4 Series on the Irish Army Role

    Ireland has far more in common with all the nations of Africa than we do with most of our immediate European neighbours. Especially as we are well on the road to being a third world country yet again.

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    Default Re: Congo 1961 - TG4 Series on the Irish Army Role

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    Could this not be merged with the Congo/central Africa thread??
    Certainly, if you are happy with that.

    And I'll put a map in the OP.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Default Re: Congo 1961 - TG4 Series on the Irish Army Role

    Quote Originally Posted by Dojo View Post
    A silly, and altogether insulting analogy. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    It was intended to be shocking, not insulting.

    I think it is a perfectly good analogy. This is a region that has been devastated over and over again by colonial intrusion and depradation, right up to the present day. There is constant political, economic and military interference. Why blame the victim ?
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  13. #28
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    Default Re: The Congo-an ongoing Colonisation.

    The story of Thomas Sankara gives a good idea of the problems of African countries and how to go about solving them. It also gives a good idea of what happens to those who try.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvBC7tmgFFM"]Thomas Sankara - the Upright Man - YouTube[/ame]
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  14. #29
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    Default Re: The Congo-an ongoing Colonisation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    The story of Thomas Sankara gives a good idea of the problems of African countries and how to go about solving them. It also gives a good idea of what happens to those who try.

    Thomas Sankara - the Upright Man - YouTube
    Of the same broad category as Gaddafi - rested on popular support and relied on armed forces, banned Unions and parties.

    He did away with Ministerial cars and cut their wages - and his own.

    No wonder he had plenty of enemies.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  15. #30
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    Default Re: The Congo-an ongoing Colonisation.

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Of the same broad category as Gaddafi - rested on popular support and relied on armed forces, banned Unions and parties.

    He did away with Ministerial cars and cut their wages - and his own.

    No wonder he had plenty of enemies.
    Gaddafi? Are you for real. There is absolutely nothing in common.

    Gaddafi and his family and cronies were at the head of an exploiting elite. They lived like royalty. Millions upon millions salted away.

    Sankara had little more than his guitar when he died. You are talking fish and fowl here.

    Sankara was a revolutionary. Gaddafi was an arch-reactionary.

    Could you see Sankara co-operating with western intelligence agencies? Never in a million years. Could you see his regime torturing people?

    It is an insult to the memory of an outstanding man to compare him to filth like Gaddafi.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

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