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Thread: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder View Post
    This issue is much bigger than just women (or children, or gays, or working-class people, or........). In my experience of Ireland, all 39 years of it, one of the great flaws of any allegedly progressive reforming group is that they always focus on the rights of Group X.

    The democratic and republican thing to do would be to focus on the universal rights of Citizens, which by definition includes all the various groups who feel aggrieved, and by definition reduces the inside-track golden circle to having to play on the same pitch as everyone else.

    For decades I tried to argue this blindingly simple and straightforward point with Irish people. Nobody understood it.

    Nah, Irish people would rather focus on some particular Tribe to the exclusion of all others. It seems to be the inbuilt response, and in all truth any concepts of democratic republicanism run very very very very shallow indeed in Ireland, for all our pretensions to being a supposed Republic. Don't get me started on the communal myth of being rebels.

    Ireland deserves what it gets, and this thread is not exactly filling me with hope that even the allegedly progressive elements in Ireland actually get it.....or that they ever will.
    The Justice system is actually a great reflection on the status quo orthodoxy of the people in this state. The failures of the system are a deliberate rigging of the game for the insiders and their henchmen with just a sprinkle of semi-justice for the bulk of the citizens. That very idea will meet with a blank stare when it's discussed with the bulk of Irish people. They are quite simply not republican in any meaningful way. They're happy to rub along with the feudalistc political and legal system and happy to let that system run itself.

    Imagine a state where everyone is equal before the law, where the states agents can be held to account and where the connected get the same treatment as everyone else. Then look at Ireland and weep as the anti-intellectualism in political policies are accepted by an electorate with a staggering appetite for nothing other than personal greed.
    Last edited by Shaadi; 25-11-2012 at 11:26 AM.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    When it was written by Eamon DeValera and Archbishop John Charles McQuaid in 1937, the entire Constitution was based on this. Like the Holy Stone of Clonrickett, this 3rd Class relic needs not amending but complete replacement.
    You are in need of enlightenment my friend.

    http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Orig.../9781904890751

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    Sidey is right I think in saying that the focus should be on the Citizen in a republic and not on rules for men and rules for women.

    The Constitution should absolutely be gender free. As for the rest of it we are all Irish and we known damn well where the second class status for women in Ireland has traditionally come from and there is no point in conservative civil servants pointing to 'official' Ireland as a theoretical remedy because 'official' Ireland is a Tir Na N'og construct- fake and riddled with sophistries of one kind or another.
    Think National. Act Local. Oh- and superstition is just the dark matter of human history.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    rape 2 women. get 3 years suspended from your 12 year sentence. At least the cash bribe was refused.

    Justice White sentenced him to 12 years in jail, suspending the final three years.

    He directed that €20,000, which had been offered to but rejected by the victims, be returned to Garg's parents.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1204/kap...st-dublin.html
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    Looks like the justice system fails women again

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1206/gerard-kane-court.html

    A judge has suspended the final three years of a man's 12-year rape sentence on condition the attacker completes a Leaving Cert.

    Gerard Kane, 36, formerly of Dominic Street in Dún Laoghaire in Dublin, raped a woman after breaking into her home in June 2011.

    Kane has spent most of his adult life in prison, with 26 previous convictions for burglaries, robberies, drug possession and assaults.
    History is the only true teacher, the revolution the best school for the proletariat - Rosa Luxembourg

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    Quote Originally Posted by fluffybiscuits View Post
    Im already aware of a thread on Anthony Lyons but just wanted to look at the over all picture in the Irish justice system in light of some recent cases. Recent cases have seen perpetrators of attacks being let go with suspended sentences, paying fines or partially both with the Lyons case being the most famous one. In one instance there was a case of an alleged rape victim being arrested for not testifying in court (this even made the headlines in the Guardian).

    Anthony Lyons was told to pay a €75k fine and then told he was only serving six months of a six year sentence as he was at low risk of offending. In November of this year gone by Eamon Harkin beat his girlfriend badly and only refrained from it during the ninety minute beating so he could have a glass of water. Harkin got 240 hours community service in lieu of a two year suspended sentence.

    The most shocking however comes from three cases which were presided over by a judge Martin Nolan and all three cases IMO the attacker gets a lenient sentence. The first involved a Graham Griffin was a 29 year old from Louth who attacked a 17 year old girl. Griffin told the gardai that he was under some sort of "magnetic force" and blamed the hormones . He was handed a suspended four year sentence. The second case involves a Thoms Finn who attacked his neighbour while her deah elderly father was inside his house. The victim lost conciousness and when on the ground Finn continued on kicking the victim and was later told that he could escape jail if he paid the victim €3000 compensation which was described as "a token of remorse". Lastly a Jane Ruffino told the media she felt down by the media after her attacker escaped jail when he was told to pay €5000 and this would mean he would get a suspended sentence.

    The above clearly shows that the justice system is letting down women and not only that the political system to boot but the former is not as noticeable as the latter. We have a male orientatied establishment that seems to take no notice of how women are treated and women can still be considered second class citizens in this country. We need to change the system and do a root and branch clear out of the judicial system . Nolans sentences are not satisfactory at all IMO, something that I, if I were a woman, would take issue with.



    Sources:



    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/b...lt-561171.html

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking52.html

    http://www.independent.ie/national-n...0-3265350.html

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...er-213581.html


    http://www.independent.ie/national-n...k-3294545.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...rested-ireland
    Many thanks to Alison at IFN for her help on this
    Lyons out for Christmas

    CONVICTED sex offender and businessman Anthony Lyons will spend Christmas at home with his family after serving only four-and-a-half months of a six-year prison sentence.
    http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-3325721.html
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    Again the system fails...
    History is the only true teacher, the revolution the best school for the proletariat - Rosa Luxembourg

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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/01/14/...-you/#comments

    Martin nolan, the judge in some of the the cases discussed on this thread, has been moved to the family court. All cases are heard in camera...
    History is the only true teacher, the revolution the best school for the proletariat - Rosa Luxembourg

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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?


  10. #25
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    Would anyone like to pull this together into one dense blog post ? It deserves more circulation.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder View Post
    Like I said earlier....of course there's a bias in the system. The system is based on medieval elitist god-bothering gibberish, and only those that see themselves as the elect will ever get a fair deal from a medieval system based on maintaining an unfair inegalitarian system of privilege based on medieval elitist concepts.

    This issue is much bigger than just women (or children, or gays, or working-class people, or........). In my experience of Ireland, all 39 years of it, one of the great flaws of any allegedly progressive reforming group is that they always focus on the rights of Group X.

    The democratic and republican thing to do would be to focus on the universal rights of Citizens, which by definition includes all the various groups who feel aggrieved, and by definition reduces the inside-track golden circle to having to play on the same pitch as everyone else.

    For decades I tried to argue this blindingly simple and straightforward point with Irish people. Nobody understood it.

    Nah, Irish people would rather focus on some particular Tribe to the exclusion of all others. It seems to be the inbuilt response, and in all truth any concepts of democratic republicanism run very very very very shallow indeed in Ireland, for all our pretensions to being a supposed Republic. Don't get me started on the communal myth of being rebels.

    Ireland deserves what it gets, and this thread is not exactly filling me with hope that even the allegedly progressive elements in Ireland actually get it.....or that they ever will.
    For a long time I've been quite negative in feeling towards politicised feminism after some run-ins with the US sponsored spook variety that use feminism to create division. But I think that there something a bit new going on, say with the current push for abortion legislation, anti rape action in india and radical women in action in North Africa. I think it is the kind of citizens rights and social change agenda behind it, rather than a splitting thing. It just happens that women have a some different issues to deal with in order to be full citizens. That is nothing to do with being against men.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    For a long time I've been quite negative in feeling towards politicised feminism after some run-ins with the US sponsored spook variety that use feminism to create division. But I think that there something a bit new going on, say with the current push for abortion legislation, anti rape action in india and radical women in action in North Africa. I think it is the kind of citizens rights and social change agenda behind it, rather than a splitting thing. It just happens that women have a some different issues to deal with in order to be full citizens. That is nothing to do with being against men.
    Hilary Clinton is a prime example. She has helped corrupt the whole concept of rights for exactly that purpose - I forget the exact term for it, something like 'soft foreign policy'. This approach has seen bodies such as amnesty and other ngos recruited to the cause of spreading 'democracy'. It's been used over and over to recruit leftwing opinion to weaken objection to invasions in the Middle East and elsewhere. They are even inventing accusations against Venezuela/Chavez. Not that Amnesty was ever a radical, seriously challenging org, but of late it has lost all claim to integrity of purpose.

    I don't agree with other posters that the cause of women's equality is comparable to that of other 'tribes' or 'special interest groups'. Women are one half of the human race. The male/female divide is the fundamental one - all the others are sub-categories of the two sides of that basic whole. Unless, until that fundamental wrong against women is addressed, I believe none of the other issues: class, sexual orientation, race etc etc - stand any chance of ever being resolved.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    Free on bail pending an appeal, although he pleaded guilty

    A man who admitted sexually abusing his daughter at least once a week for ten years has walked free from court after a judge jailed him for three years but granted him bail pending an appeal.

    Patrick O'Brien, 72, pleaded guilty to 16 charges of rape and indecent assault at Mackintosh Park, Pottery Road in Dún Laoghaire from 1973 to 1982.

    His daughter Fiona Doyle said the abuse was as frequent as having dinner.

    She said she was devastated by the sentence and the fact that her father walked out of court instead of going to prison.

    She also said he has never said sorry to her and she feels the system has let her down.

    Mr Justice Paul Carney said it was one of the worst case of abuse of a daughter one could possibly find and it was at the top of the scale as regards offences.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0121/pat...rien-rape.html
    Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other. ~Oscar Ameringer

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DCon View Post
    Free on bail pending an appeal, although he pleaded guilty

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0121/pat...rien-rape.html
    Mr Justice Paul Carney said it was one of the worst cases of abuse of a daughter one could possibly find and it was at the top of the scale as regards offences.

    However, he said he had to consider the health position of the accused.
    He said he was aware that if he imposed a severe custodial sentence and suspended it, it would go out to the community in soundbites that in one of the most serious cases of serial rape of a daughter, the accused walked.
    However, he added it was one of the most difficult cases to resolve because on the other side, if he imposed a substantial custodial sentence unsuspended, because of O'Brien's health problems, it would be branded that he had substituted one injustice for another.

    The judge referred to another case where the Court of Criminal Appeal suspended in total moderate sentences imposed because of the state of health of the convicted individual.

    He sentenced O’Brien to 12 years in prison, suspended the final nine and immediately granted him continuing bail pending an appeal.
    Addle-brained stuff. The Judge has similar perceptions of womens' rights to autonomy over their bodies as does the extremes to the pro-life movement perhaps.

    The daughter said that he had exaggerated his health problems in Court.
    Does that mean that there was no independent medical assessment ?

    At 72 he is well capable of continuing to abuse.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Are women getting an unfair deal from the Irish Justice system?

    This was the same judge involved in the case of the woman who wanted the right to die (http://www.prolife.ie/prolife/high-c...sisted-suicide). There is no consistency in the sentencing of any of the offenders in this country, short terms, parole etc.
    History is the only true teacher, the revolution the best school for the proletariat - Rosa Luxembourg

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