View Poll Results: Should the Law Be Changed So Bankers' Pensions Can Be Cut ?

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  • Yes

    38 82.61%
  • No

    2 4.35%
  • The issue should be dealt with by means of tax

    6 13.04%
  • Don't know / don't care

    0 0%
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Thread: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    Quote Originally Posted by musashi View Post
    I do not think Ireland qualifies as a democratic republic anymore, 'tis plain as a pikestaff that all men here are not equal.
    Well if we start holding vengeance referenda to unpick contracts you can replace 'democratic' with 'banana'.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    Well if we start holding vengeance referenda to unpick contracts you can replace 'democratic' with 'banana'.
    We became a "banana" Republic immediately the bank guarantee and NAMA were foisted on us.
    Thomas Jefferson : Banking Establishments are More Dangerous to our Liberties than Standing Armies.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    Pearse Doherty explains how the Govt could if they so wished claw back some of this bankers pension payments -

    “However this is not the case. After sustained public and political pressure the late Brian Lenihan introduced an excessive banker’s levy in 2010. This meant that while the government couldn’t stop the payment of the bonuses they could claw back 90% of the money.

    “Enda Kenny and Michael Noonan know that the same approach could be used to the grotesque pensions of ex-bankers, and indeed for former Government Ministers as well. This could apply to pensions for bankers and indeed former government ministers.

    “The fact that Finance Minister Michael Noonan falsely claims that he is powerless to do anything about these massive pay-outs is generating substantial public anger.
    http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/2489...medium=twitter
    Thomas Jefferson : Banking Establishments are More Dangerous to our Liberties than Standing Armies.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ang View Post
    Pearse Doherty explains how the Govt could if they so wished claw back some of this bankers pension payments -


    http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/2489...medium=twitter
    Was that idea ever implemented?

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    Was that idea ever implemented?
    Well spotted Baron was scrapped so finance bill could be pushed through in order to call GE11.Not much gets past you

    I wonder was that part of deal with FG/LAB in order to get bill through.

    The jist is though that its not impossible
    Thomas Jefferson : Banking Establishments are More Dangerous to our Liberties than Standing Armies.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ang View Post
    Well spotted Baron was scrapped so finance bill could be pushed through in order to call GE11.Not much gets past you

    I wonder was that part of deal with FG/LAB in order to get bill through.

    The jist is though that its not impossible
    Perhaps it would be possible but it would be very difficult to frame a measure that would achieve the objective of dispossessing the handful that the public would like to see hurt without in the process inflicting a lot of collateral damage on 'innocent' parties.

    There is also the question of whether it would be desirable to do so. There a smack of rough justice about the whole business that, whatever about giving us a short term satisfaction, tends to show that we've learned nothing from our mistakes - We're still looking for a work-around, some devious way to bend or circumvent the law to achieve our goal. And that, in my opinion, is the sort of thinking that got us into the mess in the first place.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    Perhaps it would be possible but it would be very difficult to frame a measure that would achieve the objective of dispossessing the handful that the public would like to see hurt without in the process inflicting a lot of collateral damage on 'innocent' parties.

    There is also the question of whether it would be desirable to do so. There a smack of rough justice about the whole business that, whatever about giving us a short term satisfaction, tends to show that we've learned nothing from our mistakes - We're still looking for a work-around, some devious way to bend or circumvent the law to achieve our goal. And that, in my opinion, is the sort of thinking that got us into the mess in the first place.
    Problem is Baron bankrupt banks have bankrupt the State why should services be cut to ensure these people who helped steer us into bankruptcy be rewarded.

    Didn't Irish press workers lose their pensions through bankruptcy of employers ?surely there are cases that require legislation (if not referenda) to ensure equality. I don't see how we are going to be able to continue to pay failed bankers huge pensions whilst also paying to clean up their mess. IMO it also helps stand in the way of any debt relief from EU on banking. I just can't see Angela going back to her taxpayer and saying they must contribute to the pensions of failed Irish bankers. I actually don't see this as short term satisfaction I tend to see it as rough justice being foisted on society without any say on the matter whilst that same society is struggling to service their own debts. Something will have to give
    Thomas Jefferson : Banking Establishments are More Dangerous to our Liberties than Standing Armies.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Michael Noonan says that the current law prevents us from recouping retirement payments made to bank executives in "bailed out" banks.

    If this is the case, should the law be changed ?



    Namawinelake goes on to make the point that judges' pay conditions were changed following a referendum.

    http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/20...-be-paramount/
    These banks were insolvent and should be subject to insolvency laws. The Irish State made these insolvent banks solvent. By law, the Irish State is not responsible for the debts or pay and pensions of the previous owners after nationalisation.

    This is a fact and is ignored, because the Govt have, through propaganda, made the citizens of this country ignorant.

    Bankers had there contracts drawn up by banks, not the State. We have no obligation to honour these contracts.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    Being discussed now on Prime Time.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  10. #25
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    Default

    Why is the bank being allowed to bail out its pension fund when other bankrupt entities have wound up their pension schemes with losses all round? Presumably the government could have made these guys accept losses legally? If not, I'd imagine there would be a lot of sense in capping the max pension receivable from an entity in trouble financially. If a max of 60k per annum was handed out, the ordinary bank workers would be fine and the likes of Eugene Sheehy would get a haircut.

    If the law is unjust it should be changed. Period
    "The floggings will continue until morale improves "

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    I just had an epipheny and i thought id post it here. Hows about we pass a law saying that all the money the state pays to maintain and refinance the banks must be paid back with interest when said banks begin to turn a profit again. Now i know its not hte actual banks were paying but rather obscure fund managers, etc. BUT, if somehow this principle could be correctly conceived maybe i could be on to something?? (Ok, i admit that it might well be a really ignorant idea)

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    The biggest banking union IBOA are reported to be furious over these "generous" pensions -

    The Government is permitting "one rule for the rich and another for the rest" by rubber-stamping "extremely generous compensation packages" for former bosses, the country’s main banking union has claimed.
    IBOA’s comments came in the wake of claims earlier this week that AIB used some of the €1.1bn it got from the State to fund the more than half a million euro former AIB chief executive Eugene Sheehy is getting each year from his pension.
    IBOA said that since the onset of the banking crisis, there had been exceptional treatment for former senior executives across the financial services sector. Yet, it said, over the same period its members had been forced to face redundancy and early retirement on very modest terms.

    "While the hypocrisy of this situation offends commonsense and natural justice, we learn from the Minister for Finance that these generous executive pension arrangements must be honoured because they are contractual," said IBOA general secretary Larry Broderick.

    "Like so much else in Irish life, there seems to be one rule for the rich and another for the rest," he said.
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...0HF7mg.twitter
    Thomas Jefferson : Banking Establishments are More Dangerous to our Liberties than Standing Armies.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    There is no appetite for windfall taxing the extraordinary levels of fat-cat pensions in Ireland. One wonders why.

    One doesn't have to wonder why for too long. Politicians, bankers, quangochiefs, university chiefs, 'charity' chiefs and senior civil servants would stand foursquare against such windfall taxes.

    Because they are the ones in line for such pensions.

    AIB took some of the bailout money they'd had from the public and used it to close their pension fund deficit.

    So the taxpayers in Ireland have directly funded the pensions of a company that shouldn't even exist under normal commercial rules.

    Noonan has all the power and authority he needs to levy pensions under new taxation rules but it merely pretending that he doesn't have the authority by ignoring the possibility of windfall taxing as if it doesn't exist.

    I notice also that in the US and UK bank bonuses now contain a claw-back clause where bonuses become repayable if it is discovered that the figures concerned were manipulated.

    I see no mention of this in Ireland, strangely enough.
    Think National. Act Local. Oh- and superstition is just the dark matter of human history.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ang View Post
    Problem is Baron bankrupt banks have bankrupt the State why should services be cut to ensure these people who helped steer us into bankruptcy be rewarded.

    Didn't Irish press workers lose their pensions through bankruptcy of employers ?surely there are cases that require legislation (if not referenda) to ensure equality. I don't see how we are going to be able to continue to pay failed bankers huge pensions whilst also paying to clean up their mess. IMO it also helps stand in the way of any debt relief from EU on banking. I just can't see Angela going back to her taxpayer and saying they must contribute to the pensions of failed Irish bankers. I actually don't see this as short term satisfaction I tend to see it as rough justice being foisted on society without any say on the matter whilst that same society is struggling to service their own debts. Something will have to give
    Most people would agree I'm sure, that it's disgusting to have the failed bankers still getting pension top ups from the money the taxpayer invested in the banks. I feel that disgust myself and I blame the last government generally and Lenihan in particular for failing in their duty to the people by allowing it to happen. The question we now face is whether it's possible to reverse the error and if so would the reversal cost us more than doing nothing.

    Any legislative measure the government might seek to use to address the issue would certainly be challenged and almost certainly such a challenge would succeed. The constitutional protections of property rights are there to protect us from arbitrary dispossession by the state.

    The idea of a constitutional amendment has been floated in this thread and given the popular mood there's more than a small chance that if one was proposed it would be carried. The real cost of that though, could be very severe indeed.

    If Ireland was seen as a place where contracts can be set aside to feed the popular mood it would have a huge impact on our ability to attract investment, foreign or domestic. The sort of people who are paid at or above the levels of the former bankers wouldn't touch this country with a barge pole if they felt they could be dispossessed on a whim.

    The third option is to deal with it through taxation. That was raised on News at One in an interview with a former banker turned journalist, Michael Murry. Sean O'Rourke put to him the point that I've been making here that it would be difficult to frame such a tax narrowly enough to deal with the bankers without hitting others. This didn't seem to be a problem for Murray. What he has called for is a tax on pensioners, full stop.

    Murray's reasoning was that increasing income tax is seen as an attack on work but as pension income isn't based on work there's no disincentive. He spoke of 80% to 85% on pensions over (I think) €150k.

    It is to my mind a very ugly proposal. It's using public disquiet over bankers as cover to sneak in a tax on the elderly. Few would doubt that if the principle was conceded that the figure of €150k would rapidly drop.

    Do we really want to address one injustice by creating an even greater one?

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Poll: Should the Law be Changed to Recoup Bank Pensions ?

    This is the wrong question. The law doesn't need to be touched and the whole area of 'retrospective' law can be avoided by simply using windfall taxation powers already invested in the Minister for Finance.

    This debate is deliberately in Ireland being framed in the wrong vehicle to enable a false debate to take place.

    I know why Biffo here doesn't want large pensions windfall taxed- same as the other vested interest groups with overstuffed pension arrangements.

    I notice however deep the Irish Government/state gets into a debt hole state pensions are always guaranteed- which gives the lie once again to any notion of being benchmarked to the private sector on the downward curve.

    Backscratchers Union stuff in Ireland.
    Think National. Act Local. Oh- and superstition is just the dark matter of human history.

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