How do you achieve a United Ireland?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

At the risk of being tedious once again on the subject of history there are plenty of examples of small nations using their brains to balance competing powerful dynamics around them. The island and city states between ancient Greece and Persia being one historical example.

Ireland has one good natural industry which provides a national income stream and that is agriculture and its related exports. There is another provided by our location that is criminally underutilised and that is 'blue farming' or sustainable marine farming. We're not short of raw material there either. Other than that it is a high profile in the world for tourism- an industry that has been known to be abusive to its potential customer base in the past it has to be said.

Most of the 'service' sector of the Irish economy is fake- an accountants trick. We have no reason by our location to come into conflict with the BRIC countries. It should be perfectly possible for us, provided we form the habit of thinking along these lines and drop the insecure paranoia about how close to Berlin or Boston we happen to be on any given day, to be able to steer a path for ourselves.

We have the worst of all worlds at the moment- no self-governance over finance, the balance of trade destroyed because we are exporting large sums of money regularly out of the Irish economy to pay currency gamblers and their mates abroad, a financial centre which has no interest in paying any kind of meaningful rent to be in the country and serves only to distort the domestic economy, a professional class incapable of undertaking any national project without robbing as much of whatever budget can be robbed and an utterly dull secretariat convinced of its own importance but unable to take on any major initiative without expensively buying in 'expertise'.

Mineral wealth- corrupt backhander deals enriching state negotiators with the result that that potential income stream has been delivered to looters.

Ireland desperately needs a serious insurrection and a unilateral nationalisation of resources plus a policy of refusing to sell off other assets with the threat of default if the vultures demand such sales. For the first time in its history Ireland has a nuclear deterrent and that is around the possibility of taking the Euro area down by pressing the button marked 'default'.

Our servile policies in this area maintained by a group of carpetbaggers called politicians result only in us being treated as the servant in the room. Looking ahead who is going to respect Ireland in negotiations when we have our political leadership being patted on the head with his little photo on the front of a corporate rentboy publication and the designation 'European Servant of The Year'?

History again- sovereignty is never achieved or held without demanding and insisting on it. There are no examples anywhere of a country being handed its self-determination as a gift by other nations and power blocs. It is something that has to be fought for and held. Germany and the EU are not some fine day going to say 'good lads, here you go, you've been very good and now off you go and enjoy yourself'.

Anyone who thinks Ireland will emerge as a sovereign nation again at some point given current conditions is a fool of the very worst kind. The paradigm must be changed, whatever the pressures against. Failure to insist on sovereignty over time will result only in servitude.

[Shaadi]

That is fair enough but their policies are hardly earth shattering are they? Its not that they have to shake the world up but SF could do themselves with being a bit more radical. Just taking their document on a "New Republic" that they have here


http://www.sinnfein.ie/towards-a-new-republic

That document is a positive one, and one that's achievable, although I'm not sure how true to it they'd be when they've been seduced by power and confronted with the real-politik of entrenched interests.

That would be how I'd sell my vision of the future to the electorate. It's plausible, desirable and achievable. I have no connection whatsoever to SF and would vote for any party or individual that would be thinking along the lines set out in that document.

There's the rub, in my constituency the only candidate from a political viewpoint such as the one outlined in that document is a SF one. My local Labour TD is a FFer dressed in a trade union suit, the only moderately credible IND is an ex-FFer who threw his toys out of the pram when passed over for selection.

Anything more radical than that document will just not get people elected in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

[Apjp]

The biggest countries are going to be the BRIC countries, Brazil, Russia , India and China which is going to be creating the competition. Are you seriously suggesting we can compete against these economic powerhouses?

Germany and France are not our friends. We cannot compete with anyone if we are a client state of Britain, France and Germany! Anyone who has spent a good bit of time with Brits, French and Germans knows they are all nice people, and the Germans might have a chip on their shoulder, but none of them are stupid and are out for themselves. Your argument is economically insane. You say we will struggle to compete with BRIC countries, so we better be a client state of bigger more powerful European nations with imperial histories. Great idea pal.

More of this twist my words bollocksology in fluffy la la land. Some people really do like being ruled.

[Apjp]

At the risk of being tedious once again on the subject of history there are plenty of examples of small nations using their brains to balance competing powerful dynamics around them. The island and city states between ancient Greece and Persia being one historical example.

Ireland has one good natural industry which provides a national income stream and that is agriculture and its related exports. There is another provided by our location that is criminally underutilised and that is 'blue farming' or sustainable marine farming. We're not short of raw material there either. Other than that it is a high profile in the world for tourism- an industry that has been known to be abusive to its potential customer base in the past it has to be said.

Most of the 'service' sector of the Irish economy is fake- an accountants trick. We have no reason by our location to come into conflict with the BRIC countries. It should be perfectly possible for us, provided we form the habit of thinking along these lines and drop the insecure paranoia about how close to Berlin or Boston we happen to be on any given day, to be able to steer a path for ourselves.

We have the worst of all worlds at the moment- no self-governance over finance, the balance of trade destroyed because we are exporting large sums of money regularly out of the Irish economy to pay currency gamblers and their mates abroad, a financial centre which has no interest in paying any kind of meaningful rent to be in the country and serves only to distort the domestic economy, a professional class incapable of undertaking any national project without robbing as much of whatever budget can be robbed and an utterly dull secretariat convinced of its own importance but unable to take on any major initiative without expensively buying in 'expertise'.

Mineral wealth- corrupt backhander deals enriching state negotiators with the result that that potential income stream has been delivered to looters.

Ireland desperately needs a serious insurrection and a unilateral nationalisation of resources plus a policy of refusing to sell off other assets with the threat of default if the vultures demand such sales. For the first time in its history Ireland has a nuclear deterrent and that is around the possibility of taking the Euro area down by pressing the button marked 'default'.

Our servile policies in this area maintained by a group of carpetbaggers called politicians result only in us being treated as the servant in the room. Looking ahead who is going to respect Ireland in negotiations when we have our political leadership being patted on the head with his little photo on the front of a corporate rentboy publication and the designation 'European Servant of The Year'?

History again- sovereignty is never achieved or held without demanding and insisting on it. There are no examples anywhere of a country being handed its self-determination as a gift by other nations and power blocs. It is something that has to be fought for and held. Germany and the EU are not some fine day going to say 'good lads, here you go, you've been very good and now off you go and enjoy yourself'.

Anyone who thinks Ireland will emerge as a sovereign nation again at some point given current conditions is a fool of the very worst kind. The paradigm must be changed, whatever the pressures against. Failure to insist on sovereignty over time will result only in servitude.

In Fluffy's la la socialist union of the galaxy land, Ireland is not capable of economically supporting itself. He is against Irish sovereignty and the lunacy of his political utopianism and others like him in the swp must be pointed out time and again. Its the same stupid argument being made against Scottish independence.

[riposte]

Your argument is economically insane.

More of this twist my words bollocksology in fluffy la la land. Some people really do like being ruled.

In Fluffy's la la socialist union of the galaxy land, Ireland is not capable of economically supporting itself. He is against Irish sovereignty and the lunacy of his political utopianism and others like him in the swp must be pointed out time and again.

Allow me to come to the defence of Fluffy ..... he is not insane ...nor a lunatic ... just juvenile and naive. I have great hopes for him in the future.

[fluffybiscuits]

Allow me to come to the defence of Fluffy ..... he is not insane ...nor a lunatic ... just juvenile and naive. I have great hopes for him in the future.

Or just plain looney....

[fluffybiscuits]

Germany and France are not our friends. We cannot compete with anyone if we are a client state of Britain, France and Germany! Anyone who has spent a good bit of time with Brits, French and Germans knows they are all nice people, and the Germans might have a chip on their shoulder, but none of them are stupid and are out for themselves. Your argument is economically insane. You say we will struggle to compete with BRIC countries, so we better be a client state of bigger more powerful European nations with imperial histories. Great idea pal.

More of this twist my words bollocksology in fluffy la la land. Some people really do like being ruled.

I have spent time in all three and considerable time too. The people that are out for themselves are the capitalist and upper classes looking to break the back of the working man so they can make a quick couple of quid. Economic imperalism is the biggest threat to us now at the moment and we can look around to see that is an issue very much so in Ireland. A united Europe would have federalised such debt so that it became a European debt and the burden shared equally. If we go it alone and we are independent and by ourselves with no EU what happens then? We are all fu*ked then utterly and completely. If an EU doesnt appeal to you on any political level at least think of it in an economic context..

[fluffybiscuits]

That document is a positive one, and one that's achievable, although I'm not sure how true to it they'd be when they've been seduced by power and confronted with the real-politik of entrenched interests.

That would be how I'd sell my vision of the future to the electorate. It's plausible, desirable and achievable. I have no connection whatsoever to SF and would vote for any party or individual that would be thinking along the lines set out in that document.

There's the rub, in my constituency the only candidate from a political viewpoint such as the one outlined in that document is a SF one. My local Labour TD is a FFer dressed in a trade union suit, the only moderately credible IND is an ex-FFer who threw his toys out of the pram when passed over for selection.

Anything more radical than that document will just not get people elected in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

Im sure Pearse Doherty , who is a bright light in SF wouldnt have his head turned in the corridors of power, if anything he would be against corruption. The public is not radical enough, that is a problem for Ireland, radicalism is seen as being too looney...I would go along with that document mostly

[Apjp]

Allow me to come to the defence of Fluffy ..... he is not insane ...nor a lunatic ... just juvenile and naive. I have great hopes for him in the future.

I'm going to stick with expecting economic freedom inside a political union is insane thanks, but juvenile and naiive might be kinder ways of saying the same thing.

[Dojo]

If a border poll was held, and it was supported overwhelmingly in nationalist areas, but rejected as a whole across Northern Ireland then I would support the incorporation of those areas that voted yes into the Republic and leave England with those right wing dinosaur unionists. If I'm being truthfully honest I'm not all that keen on sharing my country with half a million unionists. There loyalties are to Britain, not Ireland.

[fluffybiscuits]

If a border poll was held, and it was supported overwhelmingly in nationalist areas, but rejected as a whole across Northern Ireland then I would support the incorporation of those areas that voted yes into the Republic and leave England with those right wing dinosaur unionists. If I'm being truthfully honest I'm not all that keen on sharing my country with half a million unionists. There loyalties are to Britain, not Ireland.

Well the issue with sharing a country with half a million unionists is that we then take over the mantle for policing, security and ensuring they are treated fairly which we must do. It may be easier to let demographics do the job and see a UI in four or five more generations as there is a bigger spike in children being born to Catholic families. Even the IT carried the news that the universities are seeing more Catholics in edication than Protestants and as these tend to be younger this pretty much backs up my point

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...309780877.html

The figures are revealed in the statistics: there are now significantly more Catholics than Protestants in nursery, primary, second- and third-level education in Northern Ireland. If that trend continues, and it’s difficult to see a reason why it should not, then in another generation or so the majority population should be Catholic or from a Catholic background – people of voting age, most of whose immediate antecedents are nationalist in their political outlook

Maybe we just sit back and watch it happen!

[Richardbouvet]

Are the Unionists the only right wing dinosaurs? Surely people who would swap a national health service for the shambles we have here should also qualify for that epithet?

In any case, it is clear to see that by a "united ireland" some people here really mean a sectarian catholic Ireland - or else, continued partition but this time along completely sectarian lines.

I sometimes think that a great mistake was made by Collins and others in 1921. They had a choice between a mainly independent but partitioned Ireland, or no independence. If they really believed in unity, they should have chosen the latter.

The only possible approach which will work now is a compromise ireland - perhaps a dominion within the Commonwealth. Better unity with compromise than partition without it.

[fluffybiscuits]

Are the Unionists the only right wing dinosaurs? Surely people who would swap a national health service for the shambles we have here should also qualify for that epithet?

In any case, it is clear to see that by a "united ireland" some people here really mean a sectarian catholic Ireland - or else, continued partition but this time along completely sectarian lines.

I sometimes think that a great mistake was made by Collins and others in 1921. They had a choice between a mainly independent but partitioned Ireland, or no independence. If they really believed in unity, they should have chosen the latter.

The only possible approach which will work now is a compromise ireland - perhaps a dominion within the Commonwealth. Better unity with compromise than partition without it.

Oh Richards just opened a can of worms for the Republicans on here! And I thought I was in the bad books for suggesting getting with the EU!

*Gets pop corn *...

[Shaadi]

Are the Unionists the only right wing dinosaurs? Surely people who would swap a national health service for the shambles we have here should also qualify for that epithet?

Tut tut, Richard, you boys in Labour have been in power plenty of times and have shown no interest in fixing the shambles. Can't step on the toes of your buddies in the PS unions now, can you. Besides there's no reason we can't reform our health service to make it fit for purpose. The north can keep a separate health service if it likes, a bit of imigination wouldn't go astray and I'm sure they don't spend 44% on administration, so it'd probably be managable. Maybe the left-wing dinosaurs down here are the real problem.

In any case, it is clear to see that by a "united ireland" some people here really mean a sectarian catholic Ireland - or else, continued partition but this time along completely sectarian lines.

Who would those people be?

I sometimes think that a great mistake was made by Collins and others in 1921. They had a choice between a mainly independent but partitioned Ireland, or no independence. If they really believed in unity, they should have chosen the latter.

That's just what someone like you would think, you know, someone who doesn't believe in the independence of small countries. Yeah and our parents generation could have gone off and died in the British Army to free small countries (hah) and we could all wear poppies and fawn over royalty.

The only possible approach which will work now is a compromise ireland - perhaps a dominion within the Commonwealth. Better unity with compromise than partition without it.

The fantasy of returning to the mothership remains alive for you Richard. The only problem is, the mothership is sailing away from Europe and you one world happy-clappy types can't take your eyes off that prize.

PS, you'll find that Republicans are far from unwilling to compromise to achieve their goals and far more commited to equality than your neo-liberal colleagues in tbe Labour party ever will be.

[Apjp]

Are the Unionists the only right wing dinosaurs? Surely people who would swap a national health service for the shambles we have here should also qualify for that epithet?

In any case, it is clear to see that by a "united ireland" some people here really mean a sectarian catholic Ireland - or else, continued partition but this time along completely sectarian lines.

I sometimes think that a great mistake was made by Collins and others in 1921. They had a choice between a mainly independent but partitioned Ireland, or no independence. If they really believed in unity, they should have chosen the latter.

The only possible approach which will work now is a compromise ireland - perhaps a dominion within the Commonwealth. Better unity with compromise than partition without it.

This is the argument we can expect from Labour and FG over the next decade of revisionism? Feighan wearing that stupid poppy today as well. Britain's charm offensive for Southern Ireland to rejoin the commonwealth will go into overdrive, the more the EU goes into meltdown.