How do you achieve a United Ireland?

[fluffybiscuits]

Republicanism and Nationalism are seeing a resurge at the moment in wake of the austerity measures being imposed here in Ireland yet there is not much mention of the ending of partitioning/occupation etc. whatever people want to call it. We are looking inwards on ourselves to assert ourselves as a nation bound by one people and looking to reject the British influence that some on PW have told us they feel is taking over . Does this mean we will see a resurge in Ireland for the ending then of partitioning?

The GFA gave us early prison releases for both sides, use of Irish language up North, contributed to British army withdrawls etc. Do people on here hail it as a success? Over on the dark side there is a long running thread that demographics may eventually lead to a UI. The birth rate in and among Nationalists is faster than that off the opposite divide. In your opinions how we do we achieve a UI or are we going to get one soon? Will it never happen?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I suspect a united Ireland is actively being worked towards but in true vaticanese style it isn't the one most people in Ireland would have envisaged.

The language is the same but the intent is that the south should be in closer union with the UK and not the north be in closer union with the south.

We'll soon be seeing the messaging around that- probably ramped up after 2014 Scottish Referendum and intensifying ahead of the 2016 centenary in the 'republic'.

I've already seen some shills suggesting that a 'united Ireland' could be achieved by taking the whole of Ireland into the Union or Commonwealth. People like Harris and Ruth Deadly Upwards will be working towards that line shortly.

Economic factors as always are involved. Notice the recent suggestion that windfarms be placed in the Bog of Allen for sale to the UK grid (bypassing the Irish grid, perchance?).

We've recently seen the connector to the UK grid revamped. As part of the reconciliation process out of the GFA I noticed we seem to have a fair drift of Northern Ireland appointees to southern quangos in the border areas and further south.

Apart from the sudden rash of figurehead visits including the next one up with the latest photogenic couple from the royal family already invited for a parade around Ireland in order to interest the ladies and soften the mammies....

Some in the Irish establishment and the UK political establishment are working towards a United Ireland alright- but definitely not a sovereign and self-governing state.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I usually have to put in a note to this kind of thing as I have an English friend or two who constantly mistake that kind of post for being 'anti-british'. That of course is nonsense. The British people know as much about this plan as the Irish do- ie, nothing.

Both British and Irish politicians are the same stripe. Duplicitous, venal and untrustworthy in any degree.

No offence intended to British people at all. The one thing we share on both islands is the fact that we both have deeply untrustworthy lying self-promoters captured by corporate interests pretending to be democratic.

[5intheface]

No offence intended to British people at all. The one thing we share on both islands is the fact that we both have deeply untrustworthy lying self-promoters captured by corporate interests pretending to be democratic.

As Dick Gaughan one said on the sleeve notes of an album, 'what we Scots and Irish tend to forget is that the first victim of the British Empire was England'.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

That is a very good observation I think. There is no point confusing English people with their government, same as there is no point confusing the Irish people with their government.

[fluffybiscuits]

I suspect a united Ireland is actively being worked towards but in true vaticanese style it isn't the one most people in Ireland would have envisaged.

The language is the same but the intent is that the south should be in closer union with the UK and not the north be in closer union with the south.

We'll soon be seeing the messaging around that- probably ramped up after 2014 Scottish Referendum and intensifying ahead of the 2016 centenary in the 'republic'.

I've already seen some shills suggesting that a 'united Ireland' could be achieved by taking the whole of Ireland into the Union or Commonwealth. People like Harris and Ruth Deadly Upwards will be working towards that line shortly.

Economic factors as always are involved. Notice the recent suggestion that windfarms be placed in the Bog of Allen for sale to the UK grid (bypassing the Irish grid, perchance?).

We've recently seen the connector to the UK grid revamped. As part of the reconciliation process out of the GFA I noticed we seem to have a fair drift of Northern Ireland appointees to southern quangos in the border areas and further south.

Apart from the sudden rash of figurehead visits including the next one up with the latest photogenic couple from the royal family already invited for a parade around Ireland in order to interest the ladies and soften the mammies....

Some in the Irish establishment and the UK political establishment are working towards a United Ireland alright- but definitely not a sovereign and self-governing state.

Closer ties with the UK can still be made without an eradication of our soverignty through a mutual understanding of the culture of each others society. Ireland is already in the process of a conversion to American/British culture whatever way a person looks at it. The football teams we support, the TV we watch, the language we speak and the books we read to name just a few. It may be time to turn the tables and do a show of culture for our friends across the water to show case what Irish culture is and give them some differing POV as to what we are as a nation and not just a rain soaked economically fucked island full of drunk Paddys.

Economically we would not be able to sustain NI with their huge PS bill and their security costs so perhaps co governance with Britian may be the key. This is already somewhat already there.

[Saoirse go Deo]

Fluffy how can you say there has been no mention of ending partition - you mustn't be listening. SF have held numerous conferences about uniting the coiuntry all over Ireland, recently in West Belfast:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeYP22HA5_c"]'Getting Stronger' - YouTube[/ame]

Sinn Féin are always bringing up partition and talking about ending it, Adams calling for a border poll etc.

Now, whether or not you feel that is a realistic way to bring about a UI is a different matter, but you cannot say that people are not talking about ending partition.

[fluffybiscuits]

Fluffy how can you say there has been no mention of ending partition - you mustn't be listening. SF have held numerous conferences about uniting the coiuntry all over Ireland, recently in West Belfast:

'Getting Stronger' - YouTube

Sinn Féin are always bringing up partition and talking about ending it, Adams calling for a border poll etc.

Now, whether or not you feel that is a realistic way to bring about a UI is a different matter, but you cannot say that people are not talking about ending partition.

Only the other day I did mention that SF mentioned it in one of their policy documents as being the primary aim but none of the other parties seem to care too much about it.


Just IYO on a border poll, do you think it will happen anytime in the near future or further down the line..?

[Saoirse go Deo]

I don't buy this "can't afford it" line.

The North is an utter economic failure, it's unsustainable. That's why the PS bill is so high, there are feck all employers. That's one of the main reasons SF want to harmonize the corporation tax across Ireland, to attract investment.

The south, outside of Dublin, has also been an economic failure, although not to the same degree. The reuniting of Ireland is not the south taking on an extra six counties, but the formation of a brand new state - I'd expect wide changes, new constitution, public bodies etc forged by the amalgamation of the duplicated services on the island.

Ending partition makes economic sense - for the whole island. Partition has ruined the economy of the border counties, if it wasn't for Quinn things would have been much worse over the years. (that's why he is so popular despite his gargantuan mess ups and crimes).

[Saoirse go Deo]

Only the other day I did mention that SF mentioned it in one of their policy documents as being the primary aim but none of the other parties seem to care too much about it.


Just IYO on a border poll, do you think it will happen anytime in the near future or further down the line..?

The cynic in me feels that SF need a border poll sooner rather than later. If we have one in the next few years and lose, it can be portrayed as progress being made etc and would keep people happy - especially as there would be the prospect of a SF government in the south, ie a bigger platform to spread the message. That gives a seven year gap (at least) before the next border poll to agitate and promote a UI. Which will help.

However if we don't have one soon enough you could be at the stage where if we lose (depending on how much by) you'll have people asking questions, saying it's been a quarter of a century or so of the peace process and we still aren't that much closer to a UI.

Over the next few years we will have devolution of fiscal powers, that's the next big thing imo.

[Apjp]

Closer ties with the UK can still be made without an eradication of our soverignty through a mutual understanding of the culture of each others society. Ireland is already in the process of a conversion to American/British culture whatever way a person looks at it. The football teams we support, the TV we watch, the language we speak and the books we read to name just a few. It may be time to turn the tables and do a show of culture for our friends across the water to show case what Irish culture is and give them some differing POV as to what we are as a nation and not just a rain soaked economically fucked island full of drunk Paddys.

Economically we would not be able to sustain NI with their huge PS bill and their security costs so perhaps co governance with Britian may be the key. This is already somewhat already there.

Yep as Sidey said, the SWP's plan is a union with Britain and/or Europe. Thanks for confirming that again.

[Apjp]

I don't buy this "can't afford it" line.

The North is an utter economic failure, it's unsustainable. That's why the PS bill is so high, there are feck all employers. That's one of the main reasons SF want to harmonize the corporation tax across Ireland, to attract investment.

The south, outside of Dublin, has also been an economic failure, although not to the same degree. The reuniting of Ireland is not the south taking on an extra six counties, but the formation of a brand new state - I'd expect wide changes, new constitution, public bodies etc forged by the amalgamation of the duplicated services on the island.

Ending partition makes economic sense - for the whole island. Partition has ruined the economy of the border counties, if it wasn't for Quinn things would have been much worse over the years. (that's why he is so popular despite his gargantuan mess ups and crimes).

Fluffy is a fifth columnist/alternative unionist of sorts. The concept of Irish sovereignty is one he won't have discussed or recognised. He and the SWP will twist your words to make the concept of Irish sovereignty out dated to suit their arguments. You cannot argue with a unionist-even if they are of a different sort than bigoted orange order types. Unionists do not recognise our right to self governance. Fluffy only 2 posts ago said we need go-governance with the UK.

[Apjp]

The cynic in me feels that SF need a border poll sooner rather than later. If we have one in the next few years and lose, it can be portrayed as progress being made etc and would keep people happy - especially as there would be the prospect of a SF government in the south, ie a bigger platform to spread the message. That gives a seven year gap (at least) before the next border poll to agitate and promote a UI. Which will help.

However if we don't have one soon enough you could be at the stage where if we lose (depending on how much by) you'll have people asking questions, saying it's been a quarter of a century or so of the peace process and we still aren't that much closer to a UI.

Over the next few years we will have devolution of fiscal powers, that's the next big thing imo.

Why don't SF stress for a border poll whereby counties with a majority reunify with the south? That will at least shrink the Northern statelet as Tyrone and Fermanagh and possibly Derry could then end up re-unifying with the south. It'd also give the British a lot less incentive to stay.

[5intheface]

Why don't SF stress for a border poll whereby counties with a majority reunify with the south? That will at least shrink the Northern statelet as Tyrone and Fermanagh and possibly Derry could then end up re-unifying with the south. It'd also give the British a lot less incentive to stay.

Don't believe any of the NIO bull that gets peddled as fact about people's attitudes to reunification. Armagh and Derry would comfortably vote for it as well as Fermanagh and Tyrone. The problem is that having had that exact crime pushed upon them in the past, they are not going to abandon South Down including Newry, The Glens of Antrim and west and north Belfast to the same fate again.

It's an old theory that the reduced state wouldn't be sustainable but that was the same argument pushed in '22.

Apart from that, it would solve none of the problems around agreement and lead without question to violence from both sides and leave people in places like Dunloy completely surrounded. It may sound like flannel that people first have to be united, which was an old excuse for perpetuating the status quo but there is a great deal of truth in it.

Yes these four counties have more right to opt out than the 6 had to opt in but 2 disastrous wrongs will not make a right.

[Apjp]

Don't believe any of the NIO bull that gets peddled as fact about people's attitudes to reunification. Armagh and Derry would comfortably vote for it as well as Fermanagh and Tyrone. The problem is that having had that exact crime pushed upon them in the past, they are not going to abandon South Down including Newry, The Glens of Antrim and west and north Belfast to the same fate again.

It's an old theory that the reduced state wouldn't be sustainable but that was the same argument pushed in '22.

Apart from that, it would solve none of the problems around agreement and lead without question to violence from both sides and leave people in places like Dunloy completely surrounded. It may sound like flannel that people first have to be united, which was an old excuse for perpetuating the status quo but there is a great deal of truth in it.

Yes these four counties have more right to opt out than the 6 had to opt in but 2 disastrous wrongs will not make a right.

How would a 2 county state be sustainable? And, if you insist all 4 counties aformentioned would vote for it, why don't we hold the border poll now for each northern county? Wouldn't that leave the rest of the North in a minority meaning they would have to join up by default, or is it because so much of the population is centred around Antrim that you think the 4 counties who would give a majority would be in an overall minority in Ulster?