A New Party for Ireland

[Shaadi]

Its interesting how the agenda of the corporate EU elite and the SWP coalesce on the issue of (denying) soverignity.

I think the thrust of the argument is that Fluff and others dont recognise the concept of nation (as a step above community) which some strands of marxism also have problems recognising. The concept of a nation exists, and even moreso in Ireland considering we are a small island. It is simply a step up from the community. Yes, classes also exist but i would like to find out what marx now opines on the modern economy based on IT and innovation rather than job heavy manufacturing?

Their belief boils down to wishful thinking that marxism can overcome human nature, it can't, human nature will out and the powerful will use the power of the state for their own benefit. There are no group of humans capable of resisting the arrogance of power and there likely never will be. That's why the immediacy of the threat of local accountability is the only way to keep any worthwhile degree of freedom. Without accountability at the local level, man is not free.

Anyway, Ireland, as a nation, still (tenuously) exists. That fact cannot be ignored and although at times its verrrrry frustrating, Id rather be misruled at home by one of my own (through no choice of mine, but historically and culturally still ''real'') rather than someone else whose not Irish, who doesnt understand the intricacies of my culture, language, music, humour, etc. .

The existence of Ireland the Nation as a political entity is not necessarily beholden to language or culture, it's a product of the history and shared common understanding/interests in a manageably sized community and includes the diaspora and also dissenters from the cultural norms.

For me, that's the bottom line. So, I propose we fix things ourselves, as a solution from outside will never build the type of lasting change that needs to occour.

There is no outside force which could better understand or meet the local needs and rights of the National community than its own people.

If we choose to elect donkeys we'll do it, if there are consequences in so doing, then we'll learn from those consequences and act on them. There is no freedom in being 1% of a disparate community that it isn't going let us hold it to account for making the choices as to how we live our lives..

[Apjp]

Its interesting how the agenda of the corporate EU elite and the SWP coalesce on the issue of (denying) soverignity.

I think the thrust of the argument is that Fluff and others dont recognise the concept of nation (as a step above community) which some strands of marxism also have problems recognising. The concept of a nation exists, and even moreso in Ireland considering we are a small island. It is simply a step up from the community. Yes, classes also exist but i would like to find out what marx now opines on the modern economy based on IT and innovation rather than job heavy manufacturing?

Anyway, Ireland, as a nation, still (tenuously) exists. That fact cannot be ignored and although at times its verrrrry frustrating, Id rather be misruled at home by one of my own (through no choice of mine, but historically and culturally still ''real'') rather than someone else whose not Irish, who doesnt understand the intricacies of my culture, language, music, humour, etc.

For me, that's the bottom line. So, I propose we fix things ourselves, as a solution from outside will never build the type of lasting change that needs to occour.

Well at least you can sack the government if they feck up here which they normally have done-at the very least. It's a powerful weapon as we saw with FF getting their comeuppance. The commission makes most of our laws, anc we cannot decide who they are. Germany dictates our budgets(personally I think France only cares about the IFSC and I would not blame them considering the way Googl;e have been shafting them) so we have very little, if any, fiscal or economic sovereignty.

SF have a huge opportunity here. The ULA has been exposed, so any left leaning republican party, scared enough of a volatile electorate, may be to our benefit. even if they only change things out of fear for their own positions and electoral default. How some of the nutters in the SWP argue that republicanism should lead to us being in some other political union/reformed political union is beyond me. Maybe I'm not anti republican enough for that one. What would be wrong with say enshrining the Proclamation in law?

[fluffybiscuits]

Im not ignoring this but marking it for discussion tonight!

[fluffybiscuits]

If you think the mighty Iceland and Nordic nations aren't victims(and perpetrators in some cases) of imperialism, then you really don't have a clue.

"If you remove the English army to-morrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain.

England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.

England would still rule you to your ruin, even while your lips offered hypocritical homage at the shrine of that Freedom whose cause you had betrayed." - James Connolly

Ireland is so integrated into the eurozone economy, that calling for an uprising here alone is the equivalent of someone in Co. Clare calling for an independent Clare republic. And what would happen to Clare if they got it? The other 25(or 31) counties would sit there, acquiesce and smile? The Clare Republic would be wiped out or turned into a neo-colony via a free trade agreement. The very minimum a scale any sustainable revolution or uprising has to be would be on a continental scale.

The left oppose the EU just like they oppose the Freestate..but they're not calling for secession from the Freestate but to overthrow it - and its the same position with the EU.

There is a lot of excellent fields of thought among the Republican community. They see the idea of Ireland being a soverign nation as being the answer to the problem. The idea is more embedded with romantacism than any sort of practicality, you get a UI then what do you do with half a million disenfranchised loyalists, its like hiding an elephant in a bowl of custard, it cant be done. The biggest issue is socio-economic and the achievement of an equal distribution of wealth. Demographics is going to deliver a UI anyways so they should be looking ahead of that.

There is no comparison between the Free State and EU. The Free State was a sovereign State in all but name, independent of the menace of outside forces aside from the brief period surrounding the civil war. The gombeens might have thrown away that sovereignty due to our lack of diligence and not a great deal changed post independence, but it was a sovereign state nonetheless. And saying Fluffy's types in the SWP would have opposed it is nonsense as they are partitionists. Fluffy is on record as saying reunification would be a political union which is rubbish. To be fair to the WP, at least they acknowledge the need to leave the EU to regain our freedom and to re-unify for our economic benefit. The ULA is clearly a partitionist organisation and as it supports staying in the empire, it is like Redmondite Home Rule all over again.

Connolly was also a republican so he was in favour of a sovereign Irish socialist republic. Again I will not kowtow to political unionist claptrap. Norway and Iceland have very high levels of income and social equality. We need to change things here, but small nations do not belong in political unions. We should secede from the EU as it is the biggest threat to our basic civil liberties since the Act of Union. If you want a social based economy, you need the right to decide that yourself. I am also against such unions like the USSR/EU as democracy is not possible over such a large population. Bigger nations will always dominate the agenda, and when we live on the edge of a continent of imperial powers we should be very careful as to what alliances we enter into. Better to be free and poor than a well fed slave.

Iceland also had an economy that crashed due to economics and speculation, all of these issues are cyclical and are going to crop up again in the next few years. We'll still be discussing the good old days and how things are going to improve and take back the country for ourselves. Bigger nations do dominate agendas but why is that? Because people let them. A new party could work on a local level and seek to unify unions, unemployed , students, OAP's etc. Try unifying people on the basis you want a UI, you would be laughed at .

That's all grand, but here's the thing, we could have of had an open pluralistic progressive society if we wanted to.

All that all 20th century fantasy socialist workers spiel is redundant, not because people can't coopearate to run society in such a way, but because the 20th century world is dead and buried.

People actually want the vigour that capitalism brings, a new generation of iPod every few years, constant innovation and excitement. That's not wishful thinking, it's fact and they're not going to turn their backs on that world.

The best that can be hoped for is to keep the social democratic model intact and to keep the inequalities between top and bottom to a reasonable level and to be able to hold the powerful to account. That's the battle, the corporate forces ranged against it are in cahoots with the technocrats in charge of the World's political unions.

The Nation state is an impediment to the rule of the corporates and the interests of the technocrats. They relish its destruction, the end of the Nation State gives them free rein to impose their hegemony on the masses.

The autocratic capitalists of the world seek to enslave humans as a commodity for their benefit, the trickle down effect. We can still be a UI but we will always have a rich class benefitting off us and meanwhile a half million unionists crying that they feel they are not wanted in the state. Later on ina thread or another one people are talking about over coming human nature. This notion of "nation" stems from the psychological need for identity, competition for resources and not feeling in control. Republicanism attaches itself on to this and exploits this psychological niche for its own end, we are bigger than that. We are members of the human race.

Its interesting how the agenda of the corporate EU elite and the SWP coalesce on the issue of (denying) soverignity.

I think the thrust of the argument is that Fluff and others dont recognise the concept of nation (as a step above community) which some strands of marxism also have problems recognising. The concept of a nation exists, and even moreso in Ireland considering we are a small island. It is simply a step up from the community. Yes, classes also exist but i would like to find out what marx now opines on the modern economy based on IT and innovation rather than job heavy manufacturing?

Anyway, Ireland, as a nation, still (tenuously) exists. That fact cannot be ignored and although at times its verrrrry frustrating, Id rather be misruled at home by one of my own (through no choice of mine, but historically and culturally still ''real'') rather than someone else whose not Irish, who doesnt understand the intricacies of my culture, language, music, humour, etc.

For me, that's the bottom line. So, I propose we fix things ourselves, as a solution from outside will never build the type of lasting change that needs to occour.

Im out on a limb here as Marx is now relevant albeit the approach has to change. There is no manufacturiong class and industries like IT, call centres what ever they are all exist now but the basis is still the same,the exploitation of the worker. The same principles still underpin what is effecting society. Corporations not paying millions in tax? Lack of jobs? Privatisation of our industries? Culture is our interactions with society, of course we can all understand how people intereact with society.Humour, music and other choices are made on an individual level with some commonalities between but a basic rudimentary understanding of these would equip even the stupidest of people with the skills that can aid them understanding Irish people.

[Apjp]

There is a lot of excellent fields of thought among the Republican community. They see the idea of Ireland being a soverign nation as being the answer to the problem. The idea is more embedded with romantacism than any sort of practicality, you get a UI then what do you do with half a million disenfranchised loyalists, its like hiding an elephant in a bowl of custard, it cant be done. The biggest issue is socio-economic and the achievement of an equal distribution of wealth. Demographics is going to deliver a UI anyways so they should be looking ahead of that.



Iceland also had an economy that crashed due to economics and speculation, all of these issues are cyclical and are going to crop up again in the next few years. We'll still be discussing the good old days and how things are going to improve and take back the country for ourselves. Bigger nations do dominate agendas but why is that? Because people let them. A new party could work on a local level and seek to unify unions, unemployed , students, OAP's etc. Try unifying people on the basis you want a UI, you would be laughed at .




The autocratic capitalists of the world seek to enslave humans as a commodity for their benefit, the trickle down effect. We can still be a UI but we will always have a rich class benefitting off us and meanwhile a half million unionists crying that they feel they are not wanted in the state. Later on ina thread or another one people are talking about over coming human nature. This notion of "nation" stems from the psychological need for identity, competition for resources and not feeling in control. Republicanism attaches itself on to this and exploits this psychological niche for its own end, we are bigger than that. We are members of the human race.



Im out on a limb here as Marx is now relevant albeit the approach has to change. There is no manufacturiong class and industries like IT, call centres what ever they are all exist now but the basis is still the same,the exploitation of the worker. The same principles still underpin what is effecting society. Corporations not paying millions in tax? Lack of jobs? Privatisation of our industries? Culture is our interactions with society, of course we can all understand how people intereact with society.Humour, music and other choices are made on an individual level with some commonalities between but a basic rudimentary understanding of these would equip even the stupidest of people with the skills that can aid them understanding Irish people.

What on earth makes you think anybody in the EU cares what 1% of the Union thinks? I think first and foremost in terms of the 26 counties as it's the political system I grew up in. I am talking about re-asserting our right to freedom. As Shaddi said, it was fine in a customs and trading union when we could maintain strong levels of military and international independence on issues of neutrality, relations and world affairs. We developed alright and are probably an average post colonial society, so it's not like we did not have issues post colonialism having had our entire culture and right to govern ourselves subdued for 800 years. Ireland has everything to gain by being an independent country, and nothing to lose. The 3 main parties will have to go, the country needs to leave the EU and euro because its against our national interests, including the most important interest of having the right as a small nation with colonial baggage to independence.

The EU and London have no right to rule us. Queen Elizabeth the first, back in Tudor times, said you can rule the Irish by bribing them to servility and co-erce the minority who will prove 'unreasonable'. We faced that issue, and still face it in the form of the EU. All of these fantasists who are out for union with anyone that gives them a pat on the back rather than their neighbours in Belfast up the road. It is always people in Labour and the SWP who are most fervently anti republican, anti Irish unity and anti Irish independence. Give me a room with the DUP for a good wheel and deal any day than a servile Irish beggar, in thrall to anglican and eurocentric unionism.

The most dangerous reactionary and biggest threat to Irish freedom is the sell out domestic political unionist, afraid of a sovereign Ireland, more worried about deferring to betters than doing a deal with the Stormont government or defending the Southern Irish people they supposedly represent. They have a covert agenda, unlike the clear cute hoorism of FF and the equally despicable but very clear classism of FG.

[fluffybiscuits]

There is room for a new left social equality section to the ULA. A section that can come under the SWP or PBP and act as a tool to empower the minorities that are forgotten about by this ****** of a government set up. Mobilise the femenists, the gays, the immigrants, travellers, disabled and fathers rights band together to form one section that could out manouvere the other parties. That would give at least 10 to 20% of votes to one section at least.

[Mick Tully]

We set up a new party, what do we do that is practical?


-Burn the bondholders
-Prosecute those for financial treason
-Ensure banks are run to a new standard
-Increase tax on those earning over €100k a year
-New centralised democracy
-Voting age lowered to 16
-Encourage mutual co-ops
-Grants to start new businesses
-Look at renewable energy
-Improve rights for minorities in Ireland
-Health system that is free or low cost
-Subsidised child care
-Rehabilitation programmes for those with criminal records, the lock them up and throw away the key approach does not work
-Ensure multinationals here sign a document ensuring that they engage in ethically sound practices around the world
-More links between the people of Europe
-Discussion on the NI Question,can we come to a solution?
-Specific secondary schools that teach only foreign languages, Irish,Maths and English
-To boost our universities into the top 10 in the world
-Invest money into research and design - especially science and technology
-Build links with the working class movement in Britian
-Secularise the constitution
-Entrust patronage of ALL schools to a Board of Management
-System to take civil action against orders vicariously acted in child abuse
-Ensure the Vatican plays a role in the above]
-Removal of religion from all schools
-Bring in the right to die
-Legalise abortion
-Ensure those on social welfare have a net to secure them when they lose jobs - perhaps subsidise their wage in their job till new job can be found?
-Proper training courses for the unemployed but give them a wide choice of what they want to do.
-Abandoning the jobsbridge scheme (slave labour)
-Build a stronger Galetacht linked to language learning
-Encourage Protestants to move down from the North
-Give the right to vote to our emmigrants
-Stronger agricultural base to diversify food production
-A series of local projects to grow foods such as bananas, grapes etc.
-Start up a burgeoning wine industry?
-Lower tax threshold for artists.


Thats just a start....

Will this party be like the party we all had in the celtic years, if it can promise that it will have my vote. Bring it on.

[fluffybiscuits]

Well Mick the more suggestions we have the better!