A New Party for Ireland

[Apjp]

Why attempt to bring nationalism into disrepute while in the middle of an economic crisis at which no blame can be laid at the door of nationalists?

(1) Corporates (The rentier/merchant class) issuing demands to nations based on how 'systemically' important they are.

(2) An attempt by those on the right and the left to portray nations without borders as somehow something to work towards when displacement of populations has been in the past a direct contributor to extremist violence and polarisation in domestic politics.

(3) The complete failure of the left to oppose (in Ireland's case) although Greece remains vibrant with perhaps Alex Tsipras the only one I know of around Europe who appears to have the nous and the will to stand up against Goldman Sachs placement in Europe.

From my point of view I'm more than happy- I know I bore some with references to history but that gives me an awareness that the political pendulum does swing and with the inevitable backlash against EU/German attempts at removal of self-determination, the corporations moving into an almost open dismissal of the democratic national processes in the markets in which they operate and an emerging renaissance in interest in localism I'm sitting happily.

Ireland is not Greece. Spain is not Greece. But when the Greek solution is attempted on both prepare to watch that pendulum take a swing. And I suspect it will provide a serious boost to nationalism.

All to the good.

I hope to bump into you and your kind in another life Captain.

[fluffybiscuits]

What "greens"? I cannot think of a bigger irrelevance in Irish politics than the Greens now. Utterly discredited outfit

They have faded into obscurity thankfully...especially since Trevot Seargent went...

I like your list Fluffy and would add that I advocate industry which is sustainable and linked to what we know we are good at- agriculture. Industrially Ireland really has only one large native industry and that has always been farming/agriculture.

However I would link that with a very strong emerging market in the east that everyone wants and where Scotland seems to have made an early head-start- doing exactly what I suggest. Aquaculture- by which I mean supplying an exploding demand for wild salmon in China. Think I've been through it before on another thread here but it is a no-brainer for an island like ourselves and could rescue and revive the marine sector along the west coast.

We have a lot of rich farmland for a small island and that supplies most of out balance of trade pluses with other countries. Wild salmon (top end to avoid attrition rates in fishfarming through disease losses) exports to China are going through the roof and Scotland won't be able to supply the demand soon enough.

We don't see our geographic position clearly enough with the big blue bit to the west out to some 200 miles as potential farmland. Sustainable fish farming, shellfish inshore and salmon/whitefish further out could be an export goldmine both to the US and Chinese markets.

It would bring with it the natural concern to keep the seas clean so ecologically sound. Fish processing plants along the west coast would provide jobs in unemployment blackspots.

I looked into the physical act of setting up a party in Ireland before and it appears there are a number of barriers set in place effectively by the current cartel parties. You have to have a minimum number of supporters prepared to register I believe and there are some bumpf steps to go through.

The better route in my opinion would be off a movement, gaining support and then registering as a party.

However the greatest barrier of all is the following question you will face immediately; 'Whats in it for me?'

The second issue you'll face is a number of people with pet hobbyhorses (the angry Lesbian on the bicycle demanding your position on more cycle paths dedicated solely to Lesbians etc etc) and the godsquad demanding your position on abortion/alien resurrection/the northern question and so on...

Thanks for your input there Capn on that one. Aqualculture is a huge industry and things are already established if somewhat slightly. Dublin Pay Prawns have a huge continental following and we could follow with things like mussels and scallops to create a thriving indigenous industry. All we can do is issue statements on the more important issues.

Sounds like the PBPA

(And by the way - there's a few seriously dodgy ones in there)

Expand on that..

PS Are you permenantly cranky, gizza smile there

Fluffy, I thought you had joined the SWP?

I did and still am..

Fluffy you seem almost mad. Himself me and sidey had a chat the other day and it turns out the biscuits thinks we should have some mad political union to replace the current one. Fluffy repeatedly said he is not pro-Irish sovereignty, and I notice that is not on his list either. Simple things like having a secular constitution are irrelevant when the Lisbon Treaty is your constitution. We had this long bloody thread before on starting a party which Fluffy veered somewhere from liberalism-socialism-unionism. I would not go anywhere near a party which did not recognise Ireland's right to self determination.

Ireland would be self determined within a union of a federalist Europe. We can design and create a model, similar to the Swiss model perhaps where there is no need for nationalist politics, basic rights are protected and people vote on the more important issues. If we bring in one benefit for everyone, what applies in Europe will apply to all people. Im eccentric Im not going to deny that..why be normal? Unless eccentric is the new normal ...

I find peoples simplistic conjecture that all nationalism is right wing to be, well, simplistic. The irish lefts' allergy to soverignty issues is really, when i boils down to it, disturbing. Its like saying equality for all but under a foreign government! yea that

Your allergy to the idea comes from you being a slave to history. The Brits occupied us, raped us and pillaged us and oppressed us.We cannot deny this part of us however we must move on from it while not forgetting it. Its like a relationship that has gone badly wrong...

I don't think any party with a perfect programme can change things Fluffy. I think one needs a militant social movement, that is capable of consciously toppling the capitalist system to be in a situation where implementing those things would be possible.

A state that belongs to the wealthy confiscating or competing with the establishment is just impossible. Something has to give - either you break them or they break you.

We have to smash the capitalist system and stop any such union acting in the interests of corporate greed. Iceland provides a good example for us as we look at it with its designs on a constitution made up of peoples ideas in a modern age. We can design a constitution designed by the people for the people,

The odd thing is that both here and the darkside forum both currently have very active threads on the broad southern partitionism/national sovereignty/northern ireland topic. Seems to be a live topic this week for some reason, and all the demented little Cruiserologists are putting on a fine display of being three herrings short of a Reliant Robin.

The nutjobbery on display is fascinating, hilarious and disturbing all at the same time. There's a lot of very bizarre "thinking" going on on that island it seems.

I would rather be a nut than a slave to some piece of history and think with the blinkers on. Revolution is needed and this requires flexibility in thinking, if people want to live in a little boxed off world crying about British Imperialism they can, if they want to think outside the box and look at radical solutions they should and quit labelling everything they find disagreeable. If you are not a part of the solution, then you are a part of the problem.

Why attempt to bring nationalism into disrepute while in the middle of an economic crisis at which no blame can be laid at the door of nationalists?

(1) Corporates (The rentier/merchant class) issuing demands to nations based on how 'systemically' important they are.

(2) An attempt by those on the right and the left to portray nations without borders as somehow something to work towards when displacement of populations has been in the past a direct contributor to extremist violence and polarisation in domestic politics.

(3) The complete failure of the left to oppose (in Ireland's case) although Greece remains vibrant with perhaps Alex Tsipras the only one I know of around Europe who appears to have the nous and the will to stand up against Goldman Sachs placement in Europe.

From my point of view I'm more than happy- I know I bore some with references to history but that gives me an awareness that the political pendulum does swing and with the inevitable backlash against EU/German attempts at removal of self-determination, the corporations moving into an almost open dismissal of the democratic national processes in the markets in which they operate and an emerging renaissance in interest in localism I'm sitting happily.

Ireland is not Greece. Spain is not Greece. But when the Greek solution is attempted on both prepare to watch that pendulum take a swing. And I suspect it will provide a serious boost to nationalism.

All to the good.

Corporatisation has a lot to blame at this and this should be the cornerstone of any thinking to change a situation. Nationalism in my view is just limited in its application. Any new party should support Republicanism but only as a step on the way to furthering the interests of humanity . The left in Ireland dont have a lot of bite, not like the Socialists in France or Syrzia in Greece whom have done magnificent work and we could learn from them.

[fluffybiscuits]

Three other ideas to add

-The legalisation of cannabis and other soft drugs for use in certain areas of towns and cities in Dublin or for personal use by the person required

-Legalisation of prostitution to ensure that there is less trafficking, ensure health safety and welfare of sex workers and punters and the taxing of it to funnel into health services


-Building of a better tourism infrastructure to encourage tourism

[fluffybiscuits]

Job Creation plan

For every tw thousand jobs created there is a drop in the amount of corporation tax paid or a refund on corporation tax which ever way circumnavigates EU rules. There could then be a ceiling of seven per cent or something like that...

[Apjp]

La la land..socialist workers world!..everybody sing now..

[fluffybiscuits]

La la land..socialist workers world!..everybody sing now..

Is this what you had in mind...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag3nCyZZSBg"]Stalin singing The Internationale - YouTube[/ame]

[Apjp]

nah. I'll stick to Connolly and Republicanism thanks. Your welcome to the World and all the supranationalism in it, the rest of us will hopefully just want Ireland back.

[disability student]

We set up a new party, what do we do that is practical?


-Burn the bondholders
-Prosecute those for financial treason
-Ensure banks are run to a new standard
-Increase tax on those earning over €100k a year
-New centralised democracy
-Voting age lowered to 16
-Encourage mutual co-ops
-Grants to start new businesses
-Look at renewable energy
-Improve rights for minorities in Ireland
-Health system that is free or low cost
-Subsidised child care
-Rehabilitation programmes for those with criminal records, the lock them up and throw away the key approach does not work
-Ensure multinationals here sign a document ensuring that they engage in ethically sound practices around the world
-More links between the people of Europe
-Discussion on the NI Question,can we come to a solution?
-Specific secondary schools that teach only foreign languages, Irish,Maths and English
-To boost our universities into the top 10 in the world
-Invest money into research and design - especially science and technology
-Build links with the working class movement in Britian
-Secularise the constitution
-Entrust patronage of ALL schools to a Board of Management
-System to take civil action against orders vicariously acted in child abuse
-Ensure the Vatican plays a role in the above]
-Removal of religion from all schools
-Bring in the right to die
-Legalise abortion
-Ensure those on social welfare have a net to secure them when they lose jobs - perhaps subsidise their wage in their job till new job can be found?
-Proper training courses for the unemployed but give them a wide choice of what they want to do.
-Abandoning the jobsbridge scheme (slave labour)
-Build a stronger Galetacht linked to language learning
-Encourage Protestants to move down from the North
-Give the right to vote to our emmigrants
-Stronger agricultural base to diversify food production
-A series of local projects to grow foods such as bananas, grapes etc.
-Start up a burgeoning wine industry?
-Lower tax threshold for artists.


Thats just a start....

Well said Fluffy as most of your ideas are good. I have highlighted in Black bold marks which i agree with.

The difficult thing is to start a brand new party preferably a radical side of it. However nobody is willing to start it up and why was that? What are they afraid of ?

ULA is a joke with many factions fighting for their take/positions which is a laughing stock.

There are good few decent people (non politicians) out there who are capable of doing it by taking the scruff of the neck. Any names out there? Just like Collins, who was able to capture Irish people's imagination back then.

Mc Dowell is a big NO NO as he represents the Neo-Liberal side of it and also ex member of now defunct party PD.

[Shaadi]

We set up a new party, what do we do that is practical?


-Burn the bondholders
-Prosecute those for financial treason
-Ensure banks are run to a new standard
-Increase tax on those earning over €100k a year
-New centralised democracy
-Voting age lowered to 16
-Encourage mutual co-ops
-Grants to start new businesses
-Look at renewable energy
-Improve rights for minorities in Ireland
-Health system that is free or low cost
-Subsidised child care
-Rehabilitation programmes for those with criminal records, the lock them up and throw away the key approach does not work
-Ensure multinationals here sign a document ensuring that they engage in ethically sound practices around the world
-More links between the people of Europe
-Discussion on the NI Question,can we come to a solution?
-Specific secondary schools that teach only foreign languages, Irish,Maths and English
-To boost our universities into the top 10 in the world
-Invest money into research and design - especially science and technology
-Build links with the working class movement in Britian
-Secularise the constitution
-Entrust patronage of ALL schools to a Board of Management
-System to take civil action against orders vicariously acted in child abuse
-Ensure the Vatican plays a role in the above]
-Removal of religion from all schools
-Bring in the right to die
-Legalise abortion
-Ensure those on social welfare have a net to secure them when they lose jobs - perhaps subsidise their wage in their job till new job can be found?
-Proper training courses for the unemployed but give them a wide choice of what they want to do.
-Abandoning the jobsbridge scheme (slave labour)
-Build a stronger Galetacht linked to language learning
-Encourage Protestants to move down from the North
-Give the right to vote to our emmigrants
-Stronger agricultural base to diversify food production
-A series of local projects to grow foods such as bananas, grapes etc.
-Start up a burgeoning wine industry?
-Lower tax threshold for artists.


Thats just a start....

Improve rights for minorities in Ireland

Could you expand on that? As I believe in treating all citizens equally.

Rehabilitation programmes for those with criminal records, the lock them up and throw away the key approach does not work.

Err, agree completely with rehabilitation, but as for locking them up and throwing away the key in Ireland, you must be joking?

More links between the people of Europe.

What kinds of links?

Build links with the working class movement in Britian

Why?

A series of local projects to grow foods such as bananas, grapes etc[/B].
-Start up a burgeoning wine industry?

Climate, cost effectiveness, don't think so. But I'm very interested in trying to figure out more productive and interesting ways of using our land, rather than merely raising cattle on it.



Here's something to ponder. Planning of our villages, towns and cities to be followed up by compulsory purchase when needed of the necessary lands in the environs of these settlements, at up to three times their agricultural value and no more. This would provide cheap land for building what's actually necessary and desirable and not just what's profitable for speculators. As well as providing critical mass for our smaller urban centres, allowing easier car pooling and allowing for decent sized homes with large gardens, withing walking distance of schools, shops playing pitches etc. The primary reason for bungalow bliss is the cost of building land and not so much the desire to live in isolation.


I quite like the idea of small co-ops buying scrub land and producing timber for heating on a local basis, and providing local employment to boot.


The targeting of ghettos with high rates of social deprivation and crime for improvement, ie breaking the inter-generational cycle of poverty, criminal and anti-social behaviour, by pumping educational and employment investment into them. Doubling or trebling the spending on primary school education in these areas to make sure that kids get every opportunity to advance in life, would reduce by a multiple the cost of policing and welfare for these areas in the future. The kind of policies which would have prevented the explosion of gangland crime we've had in areas of high social-deprivation. That also means taking out the revolving door syndrome of our justice system, which encourages multiple-offences and acts as an inducement to criminality.

[Apjp]

How on earth would you intend to implement all of these so called radical programmes without seceding from the EU? Even if you had a majority in the dail tomorrow and passed a favourable budget to achieve some of your objectives, Berlin has a veto on our budgets as long as we remain in the union. EU secession is the major sticking point. Ireland needs a new currency while we're at it as well.

[fluffybiscuits]

Well said Fluffy as most of your ideas are good. I have highlighted in Black bold marks which i agree with.

The difficult thing is to start a brand new party preferably a radical side of it. However nobody is willing to start it up and why was that? What are they afraid of ?

ULA is a joke with many factions fighting for their take/positions which is a laughing stock.

There are good few decent people (non politicians) out there who are capable of doing it by taking the scruff of the neck. Any names out there? Just like Collins, who was able to capture Irish people's imagination back then.

Mc Dowell is a big NO NO as he represents the Neo-Liberal side of it and also ex member of now defunct party PD.

Mc Dowell would get no where near such a party. A right winger who would not get any votes.ULA are too divided at the moment

Reason no one has started a party ? its indifference, a major problem in my eyes, everyone has lost interest

Could you expand on that? As I believe in treating all citizens equally.




Err, agree completely with rehabilitation, but as for locking them up and throwing away the key in Ireland, you must be joking?




What kinds of links?




Why?



Climate, cost effectiveness, don't think so. But I'm very interested in trying to figure out more productive and interesting ways of using our land, rather than merely raising cattle on it.



Here's something to ponder. Planning of our villages, towns and cities to be followed up by compulsory purchase when needed of the necessary lands in the environs of these settlements, at up to three times their agricultural value and no more. This would provide cheap land for building what's actually necessary and desirable and not just what's profitable for speculators. As well as providing critical mass for our smaller urban centres, allowing easier car pooling and allowing for decent sized homes with large gardens, withing walking distance of schools, shops playing pitches etc. The primary reason for bungalow bliss is the cost of building land and not so much the desire to live in isolation.


I quite like the idea of small co-ops buying scrub land and producing timber for heating on a local basis, and providing local employment to boot.


The targeting of ghettos with high rates of social deprivation and crime for improvement, ie breaking the inter-generational cycle of poverty, criminal and anti-social behaviour, by pumping educational and employment investment into them. Doubling or trebling the spending on primary school education in these areas to make sure that kids get every opportunity to advance in life, would reduce by a multiple the cost of policing and welfare for these areas in the future. The kind of policies which would have prevented the explosion of gangland crime we've had in areas of high social-deprivation. That also means taking out the revolving door syndrome of our justice system, which encourages multiple-offences and acts as an inducement to criminality.

More rights for minorities - means
-Recognition for same sex marriages and adoption by gay couples
-Suspension of all deportations for staff
-Removal of religious ethos in schools as being a bar to hiring of staff - this puts those whom are homosexual or not of a particular religious persuasion from being hired in a shcool

There is not a lot of holistic approaches being taken for those whom are in the jails. People who go into jail come out wiht the worse problems than they went in with and are left with low self esteem and a lack of belief in themselves. What they need is the equivelant of a morale boost, let them reach their full potential as society failed them. Give them a trade,a degree and help them get a job.

More links with other people like the Basques, Catalans, Breton communities and the working class peoples of other EU countries and Britian to face down the threat of capitalism and how its exploiting us. We can do it alone but we have more chance of succeeding with better links built. A united worker movement would stare down the capitalist threat.

Love the idea of creating small plots of land. There is enough waste land in this country to create such plots however without the need for compulsory purchase orders.If you look at areas like Rathcoole and Citywest where there is loads of wasteland in Dublin there is ample opportunity to build something like this.

Your idea is spot on ,we can educate our way out of this recession one way or another. Identify skill gaps and use this to create jobs. Languages and IT are the main drivers.

How on earth would you intend to implement all of these so called radical programmes without seceding from the EU? Even if you had a majority in the dail tomorrow and passed a favourable budget to achieve some of your objectives, Berlin has a veto on our budgets as long as we remain in the union. EU secession is the major sticking point. Ireland needs a new currency while we're at it as well.

Berlin has a veto on our budgets to enable economic growth as they see it. Educating our way out of recession , job creation and local communities can combat poverty and grow an economy.

[Dr. FIVE]

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/201...-probably-not/

[fluffybiscuits]

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/201...-probably-not/

Great article that looks at where we may be on the left with a new party. Any new party could come from the ashes of the CAWHT but would they have a broad appeal? Would they focus on just the austerity measures (which are issues that face all of us) but ignore the rest of the issues that are normally left on the back boiler? If the right are going to get a new party the ULA should get their act together or their should be a new left party .

[Apjp]

Mc Dowell would get no where near such a party. A right winger who would not get any votes.ULA are too divided at the moment

Reason no one has started a party ? its indifference, a major problem in my eyes, everyone has lost interest





More rights for minorities - means
-Recognition for same sex marriages and adoption by gay couples
-Suspension of all deportations for staff
-Removal of religious ethos in schools as being a bar to hiring of staff - this puts those whom are homosexual or not of a particular religious persuasion from being hired in a shcool

There is not a lot of holistic approaches being taken for those whom are in the jails. People who go into jail come out wiht the worse problems than they went in with and are left with low self esteem and a lack of belief in themselves. What they need is the equivelant of a morale boost, let them reach their full potential as society failed them. Give them a trade,a degree and help them get a job.

More links with other people like the Basques, Catalans, Breton communities and the working class peoples of other EU countries and Britian to face down the threat of capitalism and how its exploiting us. We can do it alone but we have more chance of succeeding with better links built. A united worker movement would stare down the capitalist threat.

Love the idea of creating small plots of land. There is enough waste land in this country to create such plots however without the need for compulsory purchase orders.If you look at areas like Rathcoole and Citywest where there is loads of wasteland in Dublin there is ample opportunity to build something like this.

Your idea is spot on ,we can educate our way out of this recession one way or another. Identify skill gaps and use this to create jobs. Languages and IT are the main drivers.






Berlin has a veto on our budgets to enable economic growth as they see it. Educating our way out of recession , job creation and local communities can combat poverty and grow an economy.

This is crazy. You are justifying German/Euro imperialism. Real doublespeak as well. Berlin has a right to veto our budgets, but you want to decide how you raise and spend taxes? How does this make sense?

And do you really think Germany's elites would want us to introduce a wealth tax? That would not be conducive to their way of governing. Remember, many people in Berlin survive on 400 euro a month. They think we need to drive down our wages and keep income taxes/wealth taxes low, which is why Enda and Frau Merkel get on so well.

[Apjp]

A so called international socialist justifying German vetoing of Irish sovereign budgets. You really are against Irish sovereignty in any minute, even Home Rule form. Good luck getting all your la la projects past future dictating German chancellors and finance ministers. The only way we can restructure our economy to benefit us is by doing it ourselves, which involves taking back our sovereignty. In what la la land do you think a German government would give you the ok? And in what la la land would you let them tell you what to do if you were really talking about 'radical politics'? Perhaps I have not got the emotional intelligence to understand your argument of coming up with all these projects then going to Germany for permission. Or maybe it's because, unlike you Fluffy, I don't confuse Frau Merkel with my friends at the Oktoberfest! Germany is not our friend politically or economically. It wants to keep Ireland and other countries like Ireland in submission, because a submissive colonised market, is a sustainable export market and a reliable source of income for shattered German banks. Letting Ireland compete is not in the interests of an elite in Berlin who have a notorious history of telling other countries how to run their affairs.