In Britain Jimmy Saville's name is poison; in Ireland the Christian Brothers get to celebrate!

[Andrew49]

Truly the Irish ARE different.

Jimmy Saville's rapaciousness - at last exposed - makes his name poison in the UK. The headstone on his grave has been removed and used as landfill. His body will (probably) be exhumed, cremated and dumped far out to sea. Charities associated with his name have completely distanced themselves from him. These charities will close, no doubt.

But in Ireland some of the 'great and the good' turned out for an event to mark the 250th anniversary of the birth of Edmund Rice, founder of an organisation - the Christian Brothers - that physically & sexually tortured thousands of children!

Such is the esteem that this organisation is held that former President, Mary McAleese turned out to heap praise on them!

Senator Mark Daly and abuse survivor John Allen were physically barred from attending the event. Clearly stressed, and as he grappled with two bouncers, Mr Daly said he wasn’t being admitted because he and Mr Allen wanted to distribute a leaflet.

LINK

[fluffybiscuits]

The CB we will be told educated our youth today yet some of them were complicit in the horrible torture that took place. Such a person being celebrated is out of touch with reality and shows a complete disconnection from reality.

[toxic avenger]

That's like saying that Lord Reith should be blamed for Jimmy Savile, or that the BBC, and anyone working for it or watching/listening to their programmes is somehow complicit.

It's just nonsense. The opprobrium lies with the abusers and those who knew and did nothing to stop it, or facilitated it, or covered up. Others are innocent. I'm not going to stop listening to Radio 4 or saying that I think the BBC is the best broadcasting service on the planet because this stuff went on...

[Andrew49]

That's like saying that Lord Reith should be blamed for Jimmy Savile, or that the BBC, and anyone working for it or watching/listening to their programmes is somehow complicit.

It's just nonsense. The opprobrium lies with the abusers and those who knew and did nothing to stop it, or facilitated it, or covered up. Others are innocent. I'm not going to stop listening to Radio 4 or saying that I think the BBC is the best broadcasting service on the planet because this stuff went on...

The religious superiors of the christian brothers covered up the physical & sexual torture of children. The obscenities include: child slavery, starvation, physical torture and sexual slavery. Lord Reith, as far as I know, didn't cover up anything of the sort - nor were any members of the BBC hanged for raping and murdering children.

[toxic avenger]

The religious superiors of the christian brothers covered up the physical & sexual torture of children. The obscenities include: child slavery, starvation, physical torture and sexual slavery. Lord Reith, as far as I know, didn't cover up anything of the sort - nor were any members of the BBC hanged for raping and murdering children.

Edmund Rice wasn't responsible for that, was he? Nor were most Christian Brothers. The ones who did it or covered it should be locked up. The others have an entitlement not to be treated as guilty when they are innocent. It's page one of how to run a legal system in a civilized country - no man should be held punished for something for which he is not guilty or responsible.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

The CB are still guilty. And they among other orders still owe the state 400million euro. They seem to have money to organise 'celebrations'.

In any normal country that organisation would have been shut down or run out of the country on a rail.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I'm sure there were some lovely lads in the SS as well. Anyone want to see them inviting people to public celebrations?

After all, it was only some of them ...

[Andrew49]

Edmund Rice wasn't responsible for that, was he? Nor were most Christian Brothers. The ones who did it or covered it should be locked up. The others have an entitlement not to be treated as guilty when they are innocent. It's page one of how to run a legal system in a civilized country - no man should be held punished for something for which he is not guilty or responsible.

The christian brothers who resigned on publication of the Ryan Report should certainly not be punished or held accountable. Indeed I will go as far as to name all those people and to declare them as innocent of any crimes against children. Here is the list of names of ALL innocent christian brothers:

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[toxic avenger]

The christian brothers who resigned on publication of the Ryan Report should certainly not be punished or held accountable. Indeed I will go as far as to name all those people and to declare them as innocent of any crimes against children. Here is the list of names of ALL innocent christian brothers:

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And the BBC? Is everyone guilty who continues to work for them? Or who listens to Radio 4? Consistency?...

[toxic avenger]

I'm sure there were some lovely lads in the SS as well. Anyone want to see them inviting people to public celebrations?

After all, it was only some of them ...

Yes, the Christian Brothers were slaughtering entire villages, rounding up minorities and gassing them in vans, etc....

You do your argument more favours if you don't discredit it by such ridiculous comparisons...

[Baron von Biffo]

I'm with TA on this. Collective punishment is an affront to civilisation.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

The church and CB can resolve that by helping to identify those responsible. If they fail to do so then they condemn themselves as an organisation.

No accuser required. Quite apart from the fact that as an organisation they are still maneouvering to avoid responsibility by (a) quite deliberately rebranding themselves instead of disbanding and (b) actively lying about their ability to repay abuse redress monies which the state has paid out on their behalf.

[fluffybiscuits]

I'm with TA on this. Collective punishment is an affront to civilisation.

Disagree and I tell you why. There is vicarious liability here for what occured. In a court of law, if an employee has an injury in the workplace then the employer could be responsible as he has responsibility in workplace. The same principle applies here and the CB have full responsibility to disclose all name of the perpetrators and issue a full apology.

[Andrew49]

7.61 Complainants alleged that the regime of discipline was unlawful, cruel and unjust. They claimed that it was impossible to avoid punishment in Artane, and that punishment was administered inconsistently, irrationally and capriciously by different Brothers. They alleged that, even if a boy obeyed all the rules and did what he was told, he could encounter a Brother who was in bad form or who had some other excuse for administering punishment. A boy might be punished for anything or for nothing. They maintained that there was a pervasive climate of fear in the Institution that came about because of the unbridled use of corporal punishment.

7.66 Br Noonan was Superior General of the Congregation from 1930 to 1949. He was anxious to reduce the reliance on corporal punishment and he admonished those who were intemperate in its use. There are some grounds for believing he did keep down its excessive use during his tenure of office. Letters written by him make it clear that the management of the Congregation knew excessive and frequent use of corporal punishment was a problem from the beginning of the period of this inquiry.

7.85

At the very least, this report showed there was a problem regarding the use of corporal punishment in Artane. Only one Brother could maintain discipline without using the leather.

I'm with TA on this. Collective punishment is an affront to civilisation.

Where have the christian brothers been UNFAIRLY punished?

One section of the Ryan Report gives examples of Unfair Punishments - 7.262 to 7.277 LINK and examples of Excessive Punishments and another of the Techniques (used by the christian brothers) that increased pain!

The above link is only from one Institution managed by the christian brothers. All of the punished victims were from on group in society.

Some of the findings of facts concerning that one christian brother Institution:

7.3111 . Artane used frequent and severe corporal punishment to impose and enforce a regime of militaristic discipline .

2. Corporal punishment was systemic and pervasive . Management did nothing to prevent excessive and inappropriate punishment and boys and B rothers learnt to accept a high level of physical punishment as the norm .

3. Brothers used a variety of weapons and devised methods of increasing suffering when inflicting punishment, and in some cases they were cruel and even sadistic .

4. Brothers did not intervene to stop excessive punishment by colleagues , and there was a code of conduct between Brothers that prevented criticism of each other’s behaviour, even in cases where it was clearly extreme or excessive. All Brothers, therefore, became implicated in excesses .

5. Even where a child behaved and kept to the rules, he could still be beaten .

6. The result of arbitrary and excessive punishment was a climate of fear.

These brothers don't get punished at all - they get feted by the 'great and good'

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I'm with TA on this. Collective punishment is an affront to civilisation.

'We all partied'- I look forward to your condemnation of that line.