New election of non-aligned reps to ULA steering committee

[bolshevik]

New reps to the steering committee are Eddie Conlon and myself

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[C. Flower]

New reps to the steering committee are Eddie Conlon and myself

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Congratulations and good luck to both.

Any other info on the meeting, and on Clare Daly's contribution to it ?

[bolshevik]

Congratulations and good luck to both.

Any other info on the meeting, and on Clare Daly's contribution to it ?

See the other thread www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=12564&page=22 and also my blog for a report incorporating those comments and a bit more - revolutionaryprogramme.wordpress.com/2012/10/28/ula-national-steering-committee-gets-new-members/

[C. Flower]

See the other thread www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=12564&page=22 and also my blog for a report incorporating those comments and a bit more - revolutionaryprogramme.wordpress.com/2012/10/28/ula-national-steering-committee-gets-new-members/

Thanks very much.

[C. Flower]

This is not propitious, or particularly united.

Apparently at the last national steering committee meeting the SP and PBPA reps were proposing registering three names – SP-ULA, PBPA-ULA and Independent-ULA. Eddie Conlon reported that this is actually impossible due to the rules over not being allowed to have names that similar due to potential confusion on ballot papers but they wanted this none-the-less.

[bolshevik]

This is not propitious, or particularly united.

Indeed. The registration of just the ULA was the item with the strongest support from the non-SP/PBPA meeting. How the SP and SWP respond and then how the non-SP/SWP respond to that response could well decide the future of the ULA.

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[bolshevik]

I was at my first ULA national steering committee this past Wednesday. Connecting remotely meant some technical problems but still an interesting meeting in terms of what it says about the state of the ULA. My report is available at - revolutionaryprogramme.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/report-on-ula-national-steering-committee-meeting/

[C. Flower]

I was at my first ULA national steering committee this past Wednesday. Connecting remotely meant some technical problems but still an interesting meeting in terms of what it says about the state of the ULA. My report is available at - revolutionaryprogramme.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/report-on-ula-national-steering-committee-meeting/

Thank you very much for that report.

I am glad that however limited, late, and lacking in a leaflet, the ULA will have a presence on 24th.

It is plain that the SP would prefer to risk destroying the ULA than to let a party emerge from it. And they are apparently pursuing their own party row with Daly into the ULA even though the ULA is a broad left organisation open to all who agree with its very basic aims.

I watched a video of a US candidate of the same International as the SP and she was promoting a parallel route as in Ireland - Build on a good electoral performance by forming a left electoral umbrella group and at the same time calling for building a mass party in future. Listen carefully and you will hear that as in Ireland, people would easily get the idea that it was a call for the umbrella group to become a mass party, but that was never actually stated. Exactly as per Joe Higgins in Ireland at the outset of the ULA.

What is being applied in Ireland is a one-size fits all strategy it seems.

While SP activists say that their decisions on building the ULA are determined on "the mood" of people here, it appears to me that they are determined by a standard strategy to enhance electoral performance of their own party.

Was there any explanation for the cancelling of the Summer School and the ULA conference ?

Registering a name for electoral purposes
This was the most contentious issue of the meeting. Eddie said he thought it had been agreed at the last steering committee meeting to register the ULA name but this was not accurately reflected in the minutes which reported that SP-ULA, PBP-ULA & Independent-ULA were the names to be put forward. Of course if the two founding organisations choose to re-register their own name that was up to them but the non-aligned were clear that we wanted the ULA name registered. I backed this up, pointing out that it was the one item from the national meeting of the non-aligned that had got unanimous support and that we were for all candidates of the ULA standing under the name of the ULA.


Neither the SWP/PBP or SP supported the proposal with the SP particularly vehement against the idea. They pointed out that registering just the ULA would imply things were moving forward (which Eddie explained was indeed the aim from the non-aligned’s point of view as it would indicate that the groups were committed to the project) when in fact the SP thought this was a jump far ahead and they have certain issues with where the ULA currently is and indeed a question mark over the future of the whole project. They even went so far as to say that if this went ahead they would stand separate candidates as the SP.


They also presented a secondary argument that registering the ULA would give credence to the likes of Clare Daly who also might stand under that banner – the implication clearly being that they have major issues with Clare continuing as part of the ULA.
The discussion ended with the whole issue of registration being shelved because there was no consensus.

[bolshevik]

Was there any explanation for the cancelling of the Summer School and the ULA conference ?

It wasn't discussed - I think it was covered in previous meetings.

[C. Flower]

Congrats to you and all the unaligned for keeping going, btw

[Sam Lord]

Congrats to you and all the unaligned for keeping going, btw

It actually accords with a well know definition of insanity.

[Baron von Biffo]

Talk about a complete fookin' shambles. The major obsession of the ULA seems to be to do down Clare Daly.

On the plus side, there is a sort of yellow-pack Wilt style humour about the whole thing. I look forward to the next instalment to see if there's a motion condemning the bourgeois decorations on Clare Daly's Christmas tree.

[C. Flower]

It actually accords with a well know definition of insanity.

Would you like to elaborate ?

I don't think the early stages of any political party or movement are easy.

[C. Flower]

Talk about a complete fookin' shambles. The major obsession of the ULA seems to be to do down Clare Daly.

On the plus side, there is a sort of yellow-pack Wilt style humour about the whole thing. I look forward to the next instalment to see if there's a motion condemning the bourgeois decorations on Clare Daly's Christmas tree.

Just to clarify, the obsession is the SP's. I doubt anyone else is over-bothered. Clare Daly is just one person in a group with a very broad political spectrum.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I am getting quite fed up of the gang of three (Biffo, Sam and CF - while you can understand the attitude of someone called Biffo - CF and SL have appeared to have dispensed with any kind of constructive debate - if SL ever engaged in such) blaming the entire problems of the world (and particularly the ULA) at the door of the Socialist Party - any thread mentioning the Socialist Party devolves into sectarian swiping by these three internet warriors to the point where it is getting absolutely pointless for any member of the SP to participate on this forum.

I am going to address this nonsense once and once only.

I will prefence my comments by saying that I do not know what happened at the Steering Committee meeting - however, Bolshie's comments read as if they do present a pretty balanced view of what were the likely outcomes.

It is plain that the SP would prefer to risk destroying the ULA than to let a party emerge from it.

Bullsh*t - and it has been bullsh*t from the first time you said it. The Socialist Party argues for the necessity of the building of a mass party of the working class in Ireland. The Socialist Party is not and never has been in favour of creating a party that merely brings the existing left forces together - that is not a party of the working class. The Socialist Party has consistently argued that the reason for the lack of growth of the ULA is not down to its 'structures', is not down to its lack of being a 'party' nor is it down to any lack of committment from the Socialist Party. The reason the ULA has not grown is because the working class in this country has yet to move decisively into struggle and a mass party cannot be built until that happens. Furthermore - trying to 'organisationally' bring it into existance could and probably would hinder the process of building a working class party if it is done in a hamfisted way by the existing forces on the left. The Socialist Party would view that the history of left parties going back more than a century has amply demonstrated this to be the case.

And they are apparently pursuing their own party row with Daly into the ULA even though the ULA is a broad left organisation open to all who agree with its very basic aims.

The Socialist Party does not have a 'party' row with Clare Daly - that issue has been dealt with in terms of the Socialist Party. However, the Socialist Party argued that the damage being done to the left in Ireland by Clare Daly's political association with Mick Wallace would continue until it was finally resolved. This again was demonstrated on Wednesday night when Clare Daly chose to prioritise the fact that Wallace had co-signed the Abortion Bill despite the fact that it was a ULA sponsored Private Members Bill - getting Wallace to sign the Bill was in contravention to an agreed approach within the ULA that only ULA TD's would sign ULA sponsored Dail motions. Once again Clare Daly has demonstrated that far from wanting to promote the ULA she is more interested in promoting broader 'progressives' - even when they are tax dodging property developers.

Clare Daly may agree with the basic aims of the ULA (although that could actually be a point of debate) but her continued political association with Wallace continues to politically damage the ULA.

I watched a video of a US candidate of the same International as the SP and she was promoting a parallel route as in Ireland - Build on a good electoral performance by forming a left electoral umbrella group and at the same time calling for building a mass party in future. Listen carefully and you will hear that as in Ireland, people would easily get the idea that it was a call for the umbrella group to become a mass party, but that was never actually stated. Exactly as per Joe Higgins in Ireland at the outset of the ULA.

The approach is the same - why is that a surprise - in some countries (Greece) the process is far more advanced than in others. One decent performance in electoral politics does not magically create the conditions for building a mass party. The working class in Greece are actively engaged in struggle on the streets with the state and the bourgeois class and workers in Greece have drawn political conclusions that has led to the rapid growth of SYRIZA - however, it is interesting to note that SYRIZA is still an umberella organisation and is only now begining the debate about forming a mass party.

Furthermore - if you had actually taken note of all that Kshama said during the panel discussion you could also have commented on the fact that she talked about the necessity of working class people to organise politically in their workplaces, communities and schools and that electoral politics were but a small part of what is needed to build a fighting working class movement capable of changing society.

While SP activists say that their decisions on building the ULA are determined on "the mood" of people here,

It has nothing to do with the 'mood' (as if it were some fly-by-night whimsical thing) - it has to do with the level of political consciousness and the level of political activity among the working class in this country. People on here berate the lack of struggle against austerity without ever once demonstrating an understanding of political consciousness and how it develops. The movements in southern Europe are significantly more advanced than in Ireland and most parts of northern Europe and that is reflected in the move towards new formations of the working class.

it appears to me that they are determined by a standard strategy to enhance electoral performance of their own party.

As I have repeatedly stated in the past - Bullsh*t - electoral politics is just one part of the work of the Socialist Party and not the most important part of that work. The Socialist Party is not interested in developing an electoral base - it wants to develop a political and industrial base among the working class to facilitate the creation of a revolutionary working class movement. The creation of a mass party of the working class is just one aspect of that. Electoral politics is not and never should be regarded as a substitute for sinking deep organisational roots in workplaces and communities.

There are a couple of other points in Bolshie's report that people should take note of -
1. I agree with him about the budget statement - it is not the job of socialists to propose a 'budget' that operates within the confines of capitalism. The last budget statement outlined nothing more than the fact that money did exist that could be used to develop society and that it was fundementally vital that the state takes a role in job creation. But Kenyesian policies will not resolve the crisis - and a fundemental change how the economy operates is required. At every opportunity in the media Joe Higgins and Paul Murphy make this important and fundemental point - and are reguarly berated for doing so. Yes socialists can use examples - e.g. the benefits of retrofitting buildings to create jobs and lead to long-term savings - but socialists should not be trying to produce a blueprint for running a capitalist economy.
2. I think it is interesting the approach of the different elements to proposing a strategy for the abortion issue. If given the opportunity Clare Daly would happily get Wallace and any other TD outside the ULA to sign any further Private Members Bill. As Bolshie indicated the SWP have little issue with that either. The Socialist Party has consistently argued for the necessity for all ULA sponsored bills to be signed only by the ULA TDs. Furthermore it was Michael O'Brien that suggested that a future Bill should go further than the previous one - and while Bolshie is right about the need for abortion on demand, the parliamentary groups would be restricted by Dail rules on what could be proposed. I think it is noteworthy the apparent ambivalence of Kieran Allen on the issue (if Bolshie's report is accurate).