Major reform of Junior cert planned

[Jolly Red Giant]

If the teachers do not have the skill to teach the syllabus during the short school day and school year, the hours and calendar can be changed. Relying on remedial courses as a routine is an admission of failure.

The problem is not that teachers can't teach the syllabus - it is that students can't absorb the huge amount of detail and information they are expected to - lengthening the school year would have zero effect on that.

I do not believe this on your say-so. The majority of teachers coast from year to year, repeating the same lessons. Indeed, these working conditions are a main attraction to the profession.

You have zero knowledge of the work teachers do outside the contact hours in the classroom and zero understanding of what is needed to go into a classroom and teach. The number of teachers who do what you say is minimal and they can only get away with it for a limited period of time. So far today I have spent 3 hours on prep work for next week and will probably spend another three hours this evening. Tomorrow I will be spending anotehr two or three hours correcting homework.

Fiddling the books is no excuse.

Blame the government - not the teachers

Unlike teachers I have known, I do not pretend to know everything.

Yet it doesn't stop you pontificating about stuff you know practically nothing about.

At the same time, many of us have been through the Irish educational system and we know enough to be able to criticize it and the arguments of its well-paid apologists.

I went through the education system when teachers used to beat the living daylights out of students. I dispised every teacher I ever had except for the single teacher who never laid a finger on a student. That did not mean I had a single clue about the teaching profession until I actually spent time in a classroom full of teenagers.

This is a myth.

No it isn't - since the foundation of the state the education system has been grossly underfunded and udner resourced in comparison to practivally every European country.

Good idea. This is overdue and would have been done but the government chickened-out.

So for once you are being honest in your objective of slashing the pay rates for teachers (which if implemented would have a seriously negative effect on the education system) - how about you start with demanding that all the developers, bankers, spivs and speculators hand over some of the hundreds of billions they have stashed in their back pockets.

I would not describe myself as right-wing but I agree that Irish teachers are the best paid in Europe.

Yes you are - and no they are not. To get a comparison of pay rates you have to compare like with like.

This is untrue. Primary teachers in France teach for over 30 hours per week.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_France

You are attempting to use Wikipedia as a source - good choice there.

I do not know how true any of these claims are. Can you provide a link please? For example, the average class size in Ireland is reported to be about 24:
http://www.independent.ie/national-n...ope-78045.html
And this is about the same in France:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...und-the-world/

I have provided copious amounts of links on here and elsewhere over the past 12 months - go google it (or contact the TUI or the ASTI - they have numerous independent research reports available)

And again - compare like with like - French classrooms have always at least one classroom assistant and often two. French schools have significantly greater special needs supports which make a massive difference in the classroom. And the Irish pupil:teacher ratio includes the learning supports that exist here - in France those numbers are excluded.

Besides, countries which outperform Ireland in learning assessment have much larger class sizes.

Again - absolute cr*p.

A good idea but then again, the teachers work a full day and cannot whiz out the gate in a new model top-of-the-line car at 2:50 p.m.

French schoolteachers have longer school years and instructional days.

Taking these two together - - wrong again - French teachers work considerably less hours in contact teaching time in the classroom than in ireland on an annual basis and they are rotated out of the classroom one week in every six to facilitate preparation work and departmental planning.

You mean they don't get paid extra for having the minimum educational qualification for the job?

No - I mean that they are provided with funding to enhance their qualifications and provided with paid time off for study. I am currently engaged in postgraduate study at my own expense and in my own time - if I was in France it wouldn't cost me a penny and I would have paid time off to do the course rather than doing it in the evenings and at weekends.

Year-'round schools are a great idea.

They are not actually - there are numerous studies that have shown that students can only learn so much stuff and lengthening the school year has little or no impact on extra learning. What does help is (1) extra PE activity on a daily basis, (2) proper diet, and (3) proper support services for students with special needs and learning disabilities.

But theey don't get 3 years in France. Right?

Nope - they have about what exists in Ireland - but France has considerably better parental support services, education services and facilities for working parents that are pretty much non-existant here.

Why cherry-pick selected conditions from all over the place? It invalidates your argument.

I am not cherry-picking anything - I was using France to address the issue of teachers pay and conditions and Finland to address the nature of the education system particularly in the context of the current JC proposals.

As for Finland, every teacher there has a master's degree. They have good teachers there.

And there are good teachers here as well. I have no problem with teachers in this country requiring a Masters degree and I actually support the extension of the H-Dip to 2 years. I would also completely overhaul a considerably outdated and out-moded H-Dip programme and introduce significant changes in the recruitment of trainee teachers.

Well written items can measure a lot of history learning. Research and reports could be assessed by the teacher for the students grade in his or her report card.

Again you domonstrate that you do not know what you are talking about.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I can understand concerns about resources and quality of additional CPD but from the teachers I have consulted they are optimistic about the flexibility within the framework targeting the children who do not fit into the traditional framework of rote learning, and do not see how this could negatively affect the more academically minded children.. Personally I hope that it will encourage a more proactive learning environment for the children, but we will see.

I would personally be delighted with a flexible framework to allow me to use my own ideas - however, the current proposals are actually far more restrictive that is being suggested. Maybe people could go and read what is actually in the document published by the department.

But seeing as you brought it up the Ag Science project is a lot more flexible than you imply.. The student are given guidelines and then supported to choose the topics with which they have the most knowledge/experience of to include in their project, along with outings to experience real life situations in which the range topics are applied and their own research is valued.

Can something similar be applied to the likes of History? I still cannot see why not

It cannot - the Ag Science project is based on providing facts - the history project is based on providing argument and opinion backed up with evidence. It provides for considerably more independent research and writing by the student and is based on interpretation. The assessment of the Ag Science project and the history project is considerably different. Furthermore Ag Science is primarily a rote learning subject - History is anything but a rote-learning subject.

[smiles]

I would personally be delighted with a flexible framework to allow me to use my own ideas - however, the current proposals are actually far more restrictive that is being suggested. Maybe people could go and read what is actually in the document published by the department.

I have read it and I can only assume that the teachers that I spoke to have too. . I'm not a secondary school teacher, I am a parent, and from my perspective I believe it to be a positive development. Not sure if link has been posted on here already so apologies if this is repeated:
http://www.juniorcycle.ie/NCCA_Junio...AL_02oct12.pdf
I'm intrigued as to how professionals faced with the same information end up at opposite ends with both sides feeling that the others are missing the point.

It cannot - the Ag Science project is based on providing facts - the history project is based on providing argument and opinion backed up with evidence. It provides for considerably more independent research and writing by the student and is based on interpretation. The assessment of the Ag Science project and the history project is considerably different. Furthermore Ag Science is primarily a rote learning subject - History is anything but a rote-learning subject.

Thankyou for taking the time to contrast the subjects. Perhaps you might explain though how history (for example) would not fit into the new framework

[Jolly Red Giant]

Thankyou for taking the time to contrast the subjects. Perhaps you might explain though how history (for example) would not fit into the new framework

To start with I am contrasting both subjects at Leaving cert level and secondly I was talking about the difference in the assessment process, trying to explain to 'Holly' that the subjects are not the same.

As for the junior cert proposals - Quinn has argued that 11 subjects are too many for students in the junior cert (there are actualy moe than 11 - PE and SPHE for example are not assessed). However, he suggests cutting the number of subjects when what he should be doing is maintaining the number of subjects while cutting the size of the syllabii. In particular History and Geography will suffer by becoming optional subjects. The syllabus for both is way too big and students will opt out because of the sheer size of what has to be learnt. This will have a further knock on effect at Leaving Cert level resulting in many schools dropping one or both subjects due to lack of interest. The proposals will undermine the Humanities in secondary schools and the students will be the poorer as a result.

[smiles]

To start with I am contrasting both subjects at Leaving cert level and secondly I was talking about the difference in the assessment process, trying to explain to 'Holly' that the subjects are not the same.

As for the junior cert proposals - Quinn has argued that 11 subjects are too many for students in the junior cert (there are actualy moe than 11 - PE and SPHE for example are not assessed). However, he suggests cutting the number of subjects when what he should be doing is maintaining the number of subjects while cutting the size of the syllabii. In particular History and Geography will suffer by becoming optional subjects. The syllabus for both is way too big and students will opt out because of the sheer size of what has to be learnt. This will have a further knock on effect at Leaving Cert level resulting in many schools dropping one or both subjects due to lack of interest. The proposals will undermine the Humanities in secondary schools and the students will be the poorer as a result.

Thanks for this insight, will look further

The perspective that I am coming from is that the reformed cycle has the potential to develop intrinsic motivation in the child that the current model fails to do.

[fluffybiscuits]

To start with I am contrasting both subjects at Leaving cert level and secondly I was talking about the difference in the assessment process, trying to explain to 'Holly' that the subjects are not the same.

As for the junior cert proposals - Quinn has argued that 11 subjects are too many for students in the junior cert (there are actualy moe than 11 - PE and SPHE for example are not assessed). However, he suggests cutting the number of subjects when what he should be doing is maintaining the number of subjects while cutting the size of the syllabii. In particular History and Geography will suffer by becoming optional subjects. The syllabus for both is way too big and students will opt out because of the sheer size of what has to be learnt. This will have a further knock on effect at Leaving Cert level resulting in many schools dropping one or both subjects due to lack of interest. The proposals will undermine the Humanities in secondary schools and the students will be the poorer as a result.

Combine History and Geography into one subject and offer the continious assessment on research projects may be a way forward. Students can look at history in particular and make an argument for a particular point of view. Open Geography and give a basic grounding again making it all research based so that the students have to work to research the topics. This will give them a great grounding for the future for college. The Young Scientist Awards are an example of why we should be throwing our weight behind the young students in our schools these days.

[Holly]

The problem is not that teachers can't teach the syllabus - it is that students can't absorb the huge amount of detail and information they are expected to ...

I have never, ever, heard a teacher admit that they failed to teach a child but it is common for teachers to always blame someone else, usually the children, but often the parents, and the government. For teachers, everyone else is wanting except themselves. It is sickening.

You have zero knowledge of the work teachers do outside the contact hours in the classroom and zero understanding of what is needed to go into a classroom and teach.

Says who?

The number of teachers who do what you say is minimal and they can only get away with it for a limited period of time.

On the contrary, lazy teachers are the norm.

So far today I have spent 3 hours on prep work for next week and will probably spend another three hours this evening. Tomorrow I will be spending anotehr two or three hours correcting homework.

Time management is a skill usually mastered by the end of the first year of teaching.

Yet it doesn't stop you pontificating about stuff you know practically nothing about.

Teachers are professional pontificators, probably because they spend their short working days with children whom they can browbeat.

I went through the education system ... That did not mean I had a single clue about the teaching profession until I actually spent time in a classroom full of teenagers.

That's odd.

... So for once you are being honest

Stop being so insulting ... I am not one of your pupils.

You are attempting to use Wikipedia as a source - good choice there.

What data do you dispute?

I have provided copious amounts of links on here and elsewhere over the past 12 months - go google it (or contact the TUI or the ASTI - they have numerous independent research reports available)

Consider the source. LOL

French teachers work considerably less hours in contact teaching time in the classroom than in ireland on an annual basis ...

Plainly false.

I am currently engaged in postgraduate study at my own expense and in my own time - if I was in France it wouldn't cost me a penny and I would have paid time off to do the course rather than doing it in the evenings and at weekends.

If you were in the States, you would be expected to acquire post graduate credits every three years at your own expense or lose your licence.

... there are numerous studies that have shown that students can only learn so much stuff and lengthening the school year has little or no impact on extra learning.

Exposing students to more time with Irish teachers could be overrated.

What does help is (1) extra PE activity on a daily basis,

It can't harm.

(2) proper diet,

Naturally.

and (3) proper support services for students with special needs and learning disabilities.

Goes without saying.

And there are good teachers here as well.

I met one, once.

Again you domonstrate that you do not know what you are talking about.

You don't say.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I hope your continued rant is bringing you the relief you so obviously need

I have never, ever, heard a teacher admit that they failed to teach a child but it is common for teachers to always blame someone else, usually the children, but often the parents, and the government. For teachers, everyone else is wanting except themselves. It is sickening.

What is sickening is that someone lectures people about their work without having a single idea about the job and what it entails.

Says who?

Says me - and you have demonstrated it on numerous occasions here

On the contrary, lazy teachers are the norm.

Lazy teachers don't last in the job - students eat them for breakfast

Time management is a skill usually mastere by the end of the first year of teaching.

preparatory work and homework corrections unfortunately cannot be simply tossed into a drawer

Teachers are professional pontificators, probably because they spend their short working days with children whom they can browbeat.

Go into a classroom of 30 15-year olds and try and browbeat them - you would be handed your rear-end on a platter.

That's odd.

Try spending a week teaching a class of kids - I guarantee you that someone with your attitude would be locked up by the end of it.

Stop being so insulting ... I am not one of your pupils.

I wasn't being insulting - I was being sarcastic - you're failure to pick up on it must be because you had a sh*te English teacher

What data do you dispute?

A better question would be - why look at the facts when the propaganda suits your agenda?

Consider the source. LOL

Says the clown who quotes from Wikipedia

Plainly false.

Irish second level teachers have 735 contact teaching hours per year - the OECD average is 656 contact hours and France is 628 hours

If you were in the States, you would be expected to acquire post graduate credits every three years at your own expense or lose your licence.

The USA has one of the worst education systems in the world - furthermore certification in the USA is carried out by the board of education in each state and the requirements vary significantly on a state to state basis.

Exposing students to more time with Irish teachers could be overrated.

Maybe you did learn how to use a bit of sarcasm after all - brownie points to your English teacher

You don't say.

You betcha I do