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Thread: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Bar View Post
    Of the KR in their EARLY days.

    If you dismiss those who tell the truth on a subject as liars....

    "He did not, however, acknowledge them while they were happening, and my point is that his failure to do so was rooted in precisely the same sort of unthinking bias that he derides in the mainstream press.'

    Bias -
    Could you provide a link to where he expresses his support for the KR at any stage.

    I am only asking out of interest as it was my understanding that Chomsky was some sort of anarchist and it would be unusual for such a person to express support for a Maoist movement as opposed to providing political commentary on the situation ...
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Bar View Post
    Of the KR in their EARLY days.

    If you dismiss those who tell the truth on a subject as liars....

    "He did not, however, acknowledge them while they were happening, and my point is that his failure to do so was rooted in precisely the same sort of unthinking bias that he derides in the mainstream press.'

    Bias -
    The fact is that a lot of people were sympathetic to the Khmer Rouge given that they had to deal with both Soviet funded Vietnamese aggression and the Yanks.
    For to be poised against fatality, to meet adverse conditions gracefully, is more than simple endurance; it is an act of aggression, a positive triumph.
    Thomas Mann

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post

    I am only asking out of interest as it was my understanding that Chomsky was some sort of anarchist and it would be unusual for such a person to express support for a Maoist movement as opposed to providing political commentary on the situation ...
    The Khmer Rouge werent Maoist as such...More ruled by some weird nationalist idealolgy similar to the Jurche in North Korea.
    For to be poised against fatality, to meet adverse conditions gracefully, is more than simple endurance; it is an act of aggression, a positive triumph.
    Thomas Mann

  4. #34
    Kev Bar Guest

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    [QUOTE=C Flower;30322]This is the sort of thing that requires hours of careful reading to untangle. Even from that account, Kev Bar, the most that is being said is that Chomsky may have not been totally unbiased in his approach to sources. There's hardly a human that may not be selective at some stage, purely by putting a greater weight on the probable veracity of one type of source over another.

    Yes Cactus...but he was one of a number of people who over several years derided those who turned out to be telling the truth.

    Read the introduction to the Engish translation of Panchaud's "Cambodia Year Zero" -being a priest who would have been called a liberation theologist in he had been in Latin America....who lived with the peasants, spoke the langauge and knew as well as i do that Kissinger did not create the KR not its strategies...they were being implemented in liberated zones prior to the bombing. Initially he supported

    Ref also Peter Maguire "Facing Death in Cambodia" p 63....impeccalbe sources such as myself, Samatha Power's Cambodia chapter "A Problem from Hell" and William Shawcross "Quality of Mercy."

    For a counter argument, there's always that charlatan who has become a disgrace to the word journalism, the now lying, lazy John Pilger.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    [quote=Kev Bar;31966]
    Quote Originally Posted by C Flower View Post
    This is the sort of thing that requires hours of careful reading to untangle. Even from that account, Kev Bar, the most that is being said is that Chomsky may have not been totally unbiased in his approach to sources. There's hardly a human that may not be selective at some stage, purely by putting a greater weight on the probable veracity of one type of source over another.

    Yes Cactus...but he was one of a number of people who over several years derided those who turned out to be telling the truth.

    Read the introduction to the Engish translation of Panchaud's "Cambodia Year Zero" -being a priest who would have been called a liberation theologist in he had been in Latin America....who lived with the peasants, spoke the langauge and knew as well as i do that Kissinger did not create the KR not its strategies...they were being implemented in liberated zones prior to the bombing. Initially he supported

    Ref also Peter Maguire "Facing Death in Cambodia" p 63....impeccalbe sources such as myself, Samatha Power's Cambodia chapter "A Problem from Hell" and William Shawcross "Quality of Mercy."

    For a counter argument, there's always that charlatan who has become a disgrace to the word journalism, the now lying, lazy John Pilger.
    I'll do my best to find something reliable to read - if possible including Panchaud and Maguire. Samantha Power however is hardly an unbiased source.

  6. #36
    Kev Bar Guest

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by RosaLuxembourg View Post
    The Khmer Rouge werent Maoist as such...More ruled by some weird nationalist idealolgy similar to the Jurche in North Korea.
    Junche.

    Curiously Mao told Ieng Sary- KR foreign Min. to tell the boys to chill a bit.

    Xenophobic Buddhist minds polluted by poorly digested communism and as Rosa points out self-reliant to point that the self part became superlfuous.

  7. #37
    Kev Bar Guest

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Could you provide a link to where he expresses his support for the KR at any stage.

    I am only asking out of interest as it was my understanding that Chomsky was some sort of anarchist and it would be unusual for such a person to express support for a Maoist movement as opposed to providing political commentary on the situation ...
    I'll lend you Francois Ponchaud's book. His approach was slippery it was primarily based on a consistent attack on those who wrote KR atrocity stories.

    Let's get Chomsky like.

    If you criticise critics, are you a supporter?

    If you show bias, what are you?

    You have to be biased in favour of something.

    if you are in favour of something....are you a supporter.

    Remember a consistent campaign over a couple of years.

    Ask one of our fellow posters who is in a 3rd level institution to do a lexus nexus gig on the subject.

    It took me by suprise when I found out. Just like I was shocked and depressed to find Pilger to be either wilfully blind or an outright liar.

    I still respect Chomsky though. I wouldn't waste the spit I would be tempted to launch in Pilger's face.

    (Think intellectual equivalent of Hanoi Jane - then boogie across the border).

  8. #38
    Kev Bar Guest

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    [quote=C Flower;31969]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Bar View Post

    I'll do my best to find something reliable to read - if possible including Panchaud and Maguire. Samantha Power however is hardly an unbiased source.

    A Problem From Hell is not a bad book. But both she and Maguire will refer you back to the Ponchaud issue. P.S. where do you get books if they don't sell print items in your woods?

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    [quote=Kev Bar;31982]
    Quote Originally Posted by C Flower View Post


    A Problem From Hell is not a bad book. But both she and Maguire will refer you back to the Ponchaud issue. P.S. where do you get books if they don't sell print items in your woods?
    Bookshops Friends Review copies Amazon ..... and of course the internet.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Bar View Post

    It took me by suprise when I found out. Just like I was shocked and depressed to find Pilger to be either wilfully blind or an outright liar.

    I still respect Chomsky though. I wouldn't waste the spit I would be tempted to launch in Pilger's face.

    (Think intellectual equivalent of Hanoi Jane - then boogie across the border).
    What did John Pilger lie about do you think? I've always really liked his work and think he has real integrity.

  11. #41
    Kev Bar Guest

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by red revolution View Post
    What did John Pilger lie about do you think? I've always really liked his work and think he has real integrity.

    This is going to take a while.

    To summarise - his thesis was that the UN Mission in Cambodia was a Trojan Horse to get the Khmer Rouge back to power.

    Thw world shifts and he didn't.

    In the New International - amongst other petty lies - he claimed the Khmer Rouge had a veto on the transitional political entity - it backed up his High Noon journalism. Makes it great reading. (He was one of the reasons I was working in Cambodia).

    The problem was the KR DID NOT have a veto.

    SNC - the transitional body - made up of the 4 warring factions, and UN boss. and King Sihanouk.

    If 3 agreed, the King and the UN chief were OK - the issue could proceed.


    This was fundamental.

    It seems impossibly lazy not to have known that. If I had written that, I would have resigned.

    Could give you loads more ..... buy me a pint.

    Shame but he is a f**king disgrace to the world journalism. Great propagandist.

    Ask any foreign correspondent with a brain who has covered JP's topics.... I am not alone in this view.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    [quote=Kev Bar;31982]
    Quote Originally Posted by C Flower View Post


    A Problem From Hell is not a bad book. But both she and Maguire will refer you back to the Ponchaud issue. P.S. where do you get books if they don't sell print items in your woods?

    ang dug up this very useful, fully referenced article. It isn't friendly to Chomsky and I'm not vouching for its correctness in all detail, but it gives us a good leg up in terms of evaluation of tendentious material on both sides of the argument.

    http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/chomsky.htm


    It suggests that Chomsky's partisanship lead him to misjudge or misrepresent the Khmer Rouge, giving a too favourable picture, and portrays him as a propogandist who was in this instance both selective of his sources and also in the way he interprets them.

    It confirms that Chomsky considers Ponchaud a serious source.

    I would be interested to hear replies and more about the politics of the Khmer Rouge / Pol Pot.

    The article on mekong.net suggests that it would be natural for "Marxists" to support the Khmer Rouge uncritically. Whatever about the rest of article, that has got to be rubbish.

  13. #43
    People Korps Guest

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    From an academic pov the article lacks a good structure and a conclusion that is clearly set out from the body of the text

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by People Korps View Post
    From an academic pov the article lacks a good structure and a conclusion that is clearly set out from the body of the text
    Content ?

  15. #45
    People Korps Guest

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Content ?
    Plenty sources

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