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Thread: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

  1. #16
    Kev Bar Guest

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by Almanac View Post
    There is nothing remotely fascist about the tea parties. It's a perfectly rational response to .

    The greatest bank robbery in history?
    You mean the tax cuts on the rich and the funding of the Iraq war - presumably.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Bar View Post
    Noam - A supporter of the Khmer Rouge in the early stages. Not a crew you would associate with controlled opposition.
    Can you back this up with quotes or sources? If you can't, take it down.
    "It is we the workers who built these palaces and cities here in Spain and in America and everywhere. We, the workers, can build others to take their place. And better ones! We are not in the least afraid of ruins. We are going to inherit the earth; there is not the slightest doubt about that. The bourgeoisie might blast and ruin its own world before it leaves the stage of history. We carry a new world here, in our hearts."
    — Buenaventura Durruti

  3. #18

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Personally I think Chomsky has been running on empty for quite a number of years now, parroting empty left rhethoric with nothing interesting left to say about anything. However I think it doesn't take a genius to see the this "Tea party" thing amounts to a bunch of rabble rousers trying to appeal to the same idiot mob as the one that put the ones who launched the same global disaster the this band claims it can save us from

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    It is very important that we round up the communists and charge them with treason

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    So what about the Coffee Party movement then? Maybe a bit watery to attract main stream attention?
    The Coffee Party Movement gives voice to Americans who want to see cooperation in government. We recognize that the federal government is not the enemy of the people, but the expression of our collective will, and that we must participate in the democratic process in order to address the challenges that we face as Americans. As voters and grassroots volunteers, we will support leaders who work toward positive solutions, and hold accountable those who obstruct them.
    http://www.coffeepartyusa.com/

  6. #21
    Kev Bar Guest

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Ryder View Post
    Can you back this up with quotes or sources? If you can't, take it down.
    I don't have time in life to do the homework for the beligerent ignorant. There's this thing called google.

    Try checking the response French Priest Francois Ponchaud - Cambodia Year Zero- got to his contempary accurate reports on the KR.

    Then the response to the young US embassy official, Charles Twining, from the Thai Cambodian border circa 76-77 reports on refugee accounts.

    Then check Chomsky's response - along with Ben Kiernan's - to those refugee reeports.

    Then apologise.


    But's here is that obscure and inaccessible thing called wiki ..something

    "Chomsky has been criticized for opinions voiced in a number of articles and books in which he discusses the political situation in Cambodia between 1975 and 1979 and the contemporary media response in the US during that period.

    In 1977 Chomsky, with Edward S. Herman, published a review article, "Distortions at Fourth Hand." Examining reports of mass atrocities committed by the Cambodian Khmer Rouge, they argued that there were "sharply conflicting assessments" of events in Cambodia and that the American media were selective in publishing the most anti-communist accounts. The media were creating "a seriously distorted version of the evidence available, emphasizing alleged Khmer Rouge atrocities and downplaying or ignoring the crucial U.S. role, direct and indirect, in the torment that Cambodia has suffered." Chomsky and Herman wrote:....."


    PS Noam can try to sue if he wants.
    Last edited by Kev Bar; 20-05-2010 at 02:05 PM.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    It was Rick Santelli from CNBC who came up with the Tea Party idea. Its initial motives were not racist. The Ron Paul supporters involved are not racist. The whole movement of Ron Paul is directly linked to a school of thought that is jewish in origin and was considered communist, pro Soviet and attracted ethnic minorities back in the racial 50s in the US. So it is pretty hypocritical of the mainstream media to refer to this school of thought as "negro loving jewish commies" in the 50s to now call them anti semitic racists. In fact its hysterical.

    Any anti government organisation in the States is going to attract fringe elements. Palin and her neo con war loving gun blazing lunatics hijacked it and now once the word Tea Party is mentioned the images out of the film Deliverance are evoked.

    Its a shame that a movement about resistance to bailing out banks came to this.
    "When people fear the government, we have tyranny. When the government fear the people we have liberty."

    Thomas Jefferson.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Bar View Post
    I don't have time in life to do the homework for the beligerent ignorant. There's this thing called google.

    Try checking the response French Priest Francois Ponchaud - Cambodia Year Zero- got to his contempary accurate reports on the KR.

    Then the response to the young US embassy official, Charles Twining, from the Thai Cambodian border circa 76-77 reports on refugee accounts.

    Then check Chomsky's response - along with Ben Kiernan's - to those refugee reeports.

    Then apologise.


    But's here is that obscure and inaccessible thing called wiki ..something

    "Chomsky has been criticized for opinions voiced in a number of articles and books in which he discusses the political situation in Cambodia between 1975 and 1979 and the contemporary media response in the US during that period.

    In 1977 Chomsky, with Edward S. Herman, published a review article, "Distortions at Fourth Hand." Examining reports of mass atrocities committed by the Cambodian Khmer Rouge, they argued that there were "sharply conflicting assessments" of events in Cambodia and that the American media were selective in publishing the most anti-communist accounts. The media were creating "a seriously distorted version of the evidence available, emphasizing alleged Khmer Rouge atrocities and downplaying or ignoring the crucial U.S. role, direct and indirect, in the torment that Cambodia has suffered." Chomsky and Herman wrote:....."


    PS Noam can try to sue if he wants.
    What you have adduced there does not amount to Chomsky giving support to the KR régime, as you falsely alleged. He is expressing concern over bias in the reporting from Cambodia in the '70s, notably the lack of coverage of the illegal and massive United States bombing of large swathes Cambodian territory in the early 1970s; this bombing and its effects in the Cambodian countryside played an indirect, but significant part, in the rise to power of the Khmer Rouge.

    Once more I'm asking you to retract that patently false allegation, if you have any regard for the facts of an argument. If you don't, I may indeed contact Mr. Chomsky about this.
    "It is we the workers who built these palaces and cities here in Spain and in America and everywhere. We, the workers, can build others to take their place. And better ones! We are not in the least afraid of ruins. We are going to inherit the earth; there is not the slightest doubt about that. The bourgeoisie might blast and ruin its own world before it leaves the stage of history. We carry a new world here, in our hearts."
    — Buenaventura Durruti

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    I had a quick look on Google myself last night. I had the immediate impression that this was an issue which Chomsky's political opponents had picked up on in order to paint him as having feet of clay. The idea that Chomsky was "soft on the Khmer Rouge" had clearly been energetically discussed/put out there. I didn't have time to read any of the material.


    "Chomsky has been criticized for opinions voiced in a number of articles and books in which he discusses the political situation in Cambodia between 1975 and 1979 and the contemporary media response in the US during that period.

    In 1977 Chomsky, with Edward S. Herman, published a review article, "Distortions at Fourth Hand." Examining reports of mass atrocities committed by the Cambodian Khmer Rouge, they argued that there were "sharply conflicting assessments" of events in Cambodia and that the American media were selective in publishing the most anti-communist accounts. The media were creating "a seriously distorted version of the evidence available, emphasizing alleged Khmer Rouge atrocities and downplaying or ignoring the crucial U.S. role, direct and indirect, in the torment that Cambodia has suffered." Chomsky and Herman wrote:....."
    This doesn't seem to me to show that Chomsky supported the Khmer Rouge. The argument that the devastation of Cambodia through illegal bombing and agent orange and that this had contributed to the situation in which the Khmer came to power has had wide circulation over the years.

    It in no way does it mean support for mass executions.

    But, as I said, I haven't had time to look at this properly so as to judge for myself.

    Before pressing the sue button, Kid Ryder, perhaps you would consider the future of this forum and press the report button !!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by C. Flower; 20-05-2010 at 02:51 PM.

  10. #25
    Kev Bar Guest

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    [QUOTE=C Flower;30306]I had a quick look on Google myself last night. I had the immediate impression that this was an issue which Chomsky's political opponents had picked up on in order to paint him as having feet of clay. The idea that Chomsky was "soft on the Khmer Rouge" had clearly been energetically discussed/put out there. I didn't have time to read any of the material.


    "Chomsky has been criticized for opinions voiced in a number of articles and books in which he discusses the political situation in Cambodia between 1975 and 1979 and the contemporary media response in the US during that period.


    Check the reception that Francois Ponchaud - who had been living in Cambodia and spoke Khmer - got when he wrote on the subject.

    The other name along with Noam who put down the refugee atrocity stories as CIA spin was Ben Kiernan.

    Ben has done a public mea culpa.

    Re CIA spin....

    Fair enough - the NVA took Saigon without the same fall out shortly after the KR took Phnom Penh.

    But the attacks on Ponchaud reeked. Not being able to stick a CIA dupe pin on him, they went after his academic credentials.
    Francois was one of the last westerners out of Cambodia in '75.


    "It in no way does it mean support for mass executions."

    Agreed.

    But to deny the veracity of those who accurately, and at great personal risk, reported on those executions and the manner in which it was done, was not his greatest hour.

    I would imagine he would say so himself.

    I think Francois Bizot mentions this issue in his book on his KR capture, detention....and...release!! The Gate.


    "Chomsky and Herman used this trivial error to claim that Ponchaud was playing "fast and loose" with numbers. Moreover, as I noted in Averaging, Chomsky and Herman's so-called "correction" misstates what Ponchaud had said to begin with: Ponchaud had cited a figure the Khmer Rouge had given as the number of those disabled during the war; but Chomsky and Herman incorrectly state that this figure was given as the number of wounded." etc etc

    same.

    Don't discount media bias... But with regard to Chomsky's writings on Cambodia, I don't think I have missed the point on his writings; I think you have missed the point on mine. I'm fully aware that Chomsky acknowledges the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge... now. My intention was not to imply otherwise; in fact, I stated explicitly in my original post: "None of this, I must stress, is meant to imply that Chomsky is or was a Khmer Rouge apologist. He isn't." He did not, however, acknowledge them while they were happening, and my point is that his failure to do so was rooted in precisely the same sort of unthinking bias that he derides in the mainstream press. Or, to borrow a phrase from your post, stories which support his theory are "held to a different (far lower) standard of accountability" than stories which do not. And I would ask you again: Do you seriously believe that Chomsky applies the same critical eye to all media accounts, regardless of whether or not they support his thesis? It is my recollection that Chomsky declared that in El Salvador "the population became the battlefield." The same was true - on a much more massive scale - in Cambodia. But he did not make the same declaration with regard to that nation; rather, he described the reports emerging from that country as "a flood of lies." (Chomsky's personal communication to Francois Ponchaud, October 1977.)

    http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/media3.htm
    Last edited by Kev Bar; 20-05-2010 at 03:22 PM.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev Bar View Post
    In 1977 Chomsky, with Edward S. Herman, published a review article, "Distortions at Fourth Hand." Examining reports of mass atrocities committed by the Cambodian Khmer Rouge, they argued that there were "sharply conflicting assessments" of events in Cambodia and that the American media were selective in publishing the most anti-communist accounts. The media were creating "a seriously distorted version of the evidence available, emphasizing alleged Khmer Rouge atrocities and downplaying or ignoring the crucial U.S. role, direct and indirect, in the torment that Cambodia has suffered." Chomsky and Herman wrote:....."
    That hardly makes him a supporter of the KR as you asserted.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  12. #27
    Kev Bar Guest

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    That hardly makes him a supporter of the KR as you asserted.

    Of the KR in their EARLY days.

    If you dismiss those who tell the truth on a subject as liars....

    "He did not, however, acknowledge them while they were happening, and my point is that his failure to do so was rooted in precisely the same sort of unthinking bias that he derides in the mainstream press.'

    Bias -
    Last edited by Kev Bar; 20-05-2010 at 03:32 PM.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    This is the sort of thing that requires hours of careful reading to untangle. Even from that account, Kev Bar, the most that is being said is that Chomsky may have not been totally unbiased in his approach to sources. There's hardly a human that may not be selective at some stage, purely by putting a greater weight on the probable veracity of one type of source over another.

    Are we still in some kind of touch with the Tea Baggers as a potential far-right threat ?

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    He was prohibited from entering the West Bank earlier this week. Israel now saying it was a "mistake"....


    http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=121315
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  15. #30
    Kev Bar Guest

    Default Re: Chomsky on the Tea Party - Dark Clouds of Fascism Gathering

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Ryder View Post
    What you have adduced there does not amount to Chomsky giving support to the KR régime, as you falsely alleged. He is expressing concern over bias in the reporting from Cambodia in the '70s, notably the lack of coverage of the illegal and massive United States bombing of large swathes Cambodian territory in the early 1970s; this bombing and its effects in the Cambodian countryside played an indirect, but significant part, in the rise to power of the Khmer Rouge.

    Once more I'm asking you to retract that patently false allegation, if you have any regard for the facts of an argument. If you don't, I may indeed contact Mr. Chomsky about this.
    Do so - I am sure - like Kiernan - he will acknowledge, he screwed up. Blinded by B-52s.

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