Judge Calls Travellers "Neanderthals" - Update: Phil Hogan and Billy Ireland Seem to Agree

[C. Flower]

I have a problem with a thread that accuses a judge of racism because he referred to the criminal element within this ethnic group as neanderthal.

The words used by the judge, which I've quoted previously in this thread, clearly go beyond "a criminal element within the group." In any case, unless a wider slur was intended, why mention the group at all ?

Have you ever heard a Judge bang on about "a criminal element within the settled community" "A criminal element within the Irish population" as in some way being relevant to a settled person/Irish native or other group socially approved of by the judge ?

[C. Flower]

RTE broadcast a programme not that long ago that showed that the Irish traveller population split from the rest of the Irish population of the time between 1,000 and 2,000 years ago, based on the first ever study of the dna of Travellers. This contradicted the long-held belief that Travellers descended from people who had been made homeless during the famine.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ty-156324.html

Travellers became a distinct grouping that was nomadic, relying on nomadic income sources - travelling musicians, metal workers, horse traders, seasonal harvest work etc. They are not connected with Romany people by heritage.

They operate restorative justice within their own group (still common in many parts of the world). They are very religious, as a group, and pilgrimage to specific sites is an important part of life. They have a very rich oral tradition of songs and story telling, and a coded language, Gammon. Not relying on literacy means a lot is held in the head.

Nomadic peoples, where they are forced to settle, whether in Africa, Australia, Ireland or anywhere else, seem to go through a dreadful experience that leaves some drink dependent and depressed. Settling is a big adaptation, and Travellers who move into houses are often ostracised and abused by neighbours. The same with children in schools. Being treated with basic respect is not too much for anyone to ask.

A lot of Travellers conceal their Traveller background, in their workplace, to avoid discrimination. You may well have a Traveller working beside you, and not know it.

There is a lot that can be learned from Travellers - I agree with Andrew49 on that.

Criminality is a serious pain in the neck no matter who is doing it. It is not restricted to Travellers, and most Travellers are not involved.

[fluffybiscuits]

RTE broadcast a programme not that long ago that showed that the Irish traveller population split from the rest of the Irish population of the time between 1,000 and 2,000 years ago, based on the first ever study of the dna of Travellers. This contradicted the long-held belief that Travellers descended from people who had been made homeless during the famine.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ty-156324.html

Travellers became a distinct grouping that was nomadic, relying on nomadic income sources - travelling musicians, metal workers, horse traders, seasonal harvest work etc. They are not connected with Romany people by heritage.

They operate restorative justice within their own group (still common in many parts of the world). They are very religious, as a group, and pilgrimage to specific sites is an important part of life. They have a very rich oral tradition of songs and story telling, and a coded language, Gammon. Not relying on literacy means a lot is held in the head.

Nomadic peoples, where they are forced to settle, whether in Africa, Australia, Ireland or anywhere else, seem to go through a dreadful experience that cuts them off from their traditional forms of work and leaves some drink dependent and depressed. Settling is a big adaptation, and Travellers who move into houses are often ostracised and abused by neighbours. The same with children in schools. Being treated with basic respect is not too much for anyone to ask.

A lot of Travellers conceal their Traveller background, in their workplace, to avoid discrimination. You may well have a Traveller working beside you, and not know it.

There is a lot that can be learned from Travellers - I agree with Andrew49 on that.

Criminality is a serious pain in the neck no matter who is doing it. It is not restricted to Travellers, and most Travellers are not involved.

Very informative post CF cheers for that. In school in particular is where there should be an awareness made among the children that teaches tolerance and diversity and also encourages the children to mixed. As per the posts earlier on, for too long children were marginalised in the system for being from a traveller background.

[Shaadi]

RTE broadcast a programme not that long ago that showed that the Irish traveller population split from the rest of the Irish population of the time between 1,000 and 2,000 years ago, based on the first ever study of the dna of Travellers. This contradicted the long-held belief that Travellers descended from people who had been made homeless during the famine.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ty-156324.html

Travellers became a distinct grouping that was nomadic, relying on nomadic income sources - travelling musicians, metal workers, horse traders, seasonal harvest work etc. They are not connected with Romany people by heritage.

They operate restorative justice within their own group (still common in many parts of the world). They are very religious, as a group, and pilgrimage to specific sites is an important part of life. They have a very rich oral tradition of songs and story telling, and a coded language, Gammon. Not relying on literacy means a lot is held in the head.

Nomadic peoples, where they are forced to settle, whether in Africa, Australia, Ireland or anywhere else, seem to go through a dreadful experience that leaves some drink dependent and depressed. Settling is a big adaptation, and Travellers who move into houses are often ostracised and abused by neighbours. The same with children in schools. Being treated with basic respect is not too much for anyone to ask.

A lot of Travellers conceal their Traveller background, in their workplace, to avoid discrimination. You may well have a Traveller working beside you, and not know it.

There is a lot that can be learned from Travellers - I agree with Andrew49 on that.

Criminality is a serious pain in the neck no matter who is doing it. It is not restricted to Travellers, and most Travellers are not involved.

There's an awful lot of romantic nonsense in that article as well as plenty of truth.

We're not back in the 70s anymore, when the last of the horse drawn carriages were on the roads. The romantic Traveller tradition died out then, and it was a time of terrible discrimination against travellers. There were also health problems due to the lifestyle and cousins marrying due to the small genetic pool during the 70s and 80s which led to the bringing in of brides from England.

That discrimination led to traveller advocacy groups and the Religious orders started to weigh in behind them around the late 70s. The wars over hard-stands raged and travellers are now at a point where discrimination against them is based on a mixture of outright prejudice and the result of the criminal actions and anti-social behaviour of a sizeable minority of them.

They're entitled to the same €188 a week welfare as anyone else, the same housing entitlements and the same access to state services as everyone else. They also know how to get their benefits and exactly what they're entitled to. They have traveller training/education centres and the state is more than willing to help them.

The Judge is a prize plonker, always shooting his mouth off about something. The problem with traveller criminality and most other criminality/anti-social behaviour is down to the inability of the Justice system/social worker/rehabilitation system to deal with it.

Take Frog Ward, shot dead by another man, they should never have met under the circumstances they did. Ward had 80 convictions from 38 separate court appearances and had convictions for burglary, larceny and assault, he had twice been committed to hospital for psychiatric treatment and was a man with serious mental health issues and a violent disposition. The Justice/Health system didn't effectively deal with ensuring Frog Ward was no danger to himself or others. It failed, he died and the country was subject to a round of traveller bashing and defending that should never have happened.

There's no need for treating travellers any differently than anyone else, bar perhaps accommodating the nomadic lifestyle of those who can manage life on the road and providing for their kids education. We should be a proper Republic, all citizens treated equally, no nonsense about multiculturalism. Should the Anglo-Horsey set be allowed their Stag Hunts on account of their ethnicity?

I've dealt with Travellers since I was a kid and in my working life, I met plenty of decent kind gentle Travellers and I've met plenty of aggressive travellers. Aggression is a useful tool in getting your own way, anyone who has a bit of aggresion/hint of menace about them will understand that people back down when you use your size or attitude in dealing with them. The use of "you're discriminating against us" is another tool in the box, similar to the Israeli firing out of charges of anti-semitism at their critics.

I note that Frog Ward was from the generation of travellers that grew up in the 60s and 70s at the height of discrimination against them and at a time when he would have been battered in school for the crime of being a traveller. I can think of a few travellers from that age group that grew up to have serious problems, one of them has forced people from the estate he's living in. The law is incapable or unwilling to protect them from him.

[Holly]

There is nothing romantic about dirt, ignorance, poverty, and asocial culture.

[fluffybiscuits]

There's an awful lot of romantic nonsense in that article as well as plenty of truth.

We're not back in the 70s anymore, when the last of the horse drawn carriages were on the roads. The romantic Traveller tradition died out then, and it was a time of terrible discrimination against travellers. There were also health problems due to the lifestyle and cousins marrying due to the small genetic pool during the 70s and 80s which led to the bringing in of brides from England.

That discrimination led to traveller advocacy groups and the Religious orders started to weigh in behind them around the late 70s. The wars over hard-stands raged and travellers are now at a point where discrimination against them is based on a mixture of outright prejudice and the result of the criminal actions and anti-social behaviour of a sizeable minority of them.

They're entitled to the same €188 a week welfare as anyone else, the same housing entitlements and the same access to state services as everyone else. They also know how to get their benefits and exactly what they're entitled to. They have traveller training/education centres and the state is more than willing to help them.

The Judge is a prize plonker, always shooting his mouth off about something. The problem with traveller criminality and most other criminality/anti-social behaviour is down to the inability of the Justice system/social worker/rehabilitation system to deal with it.

Take Frog Ward, shot dead by another man, they should never have met under the circumstances they did. Ward had 80 convictions from 38 separate court appearances and had convictions for burglary, larceny and assault, he had twice been committed to hospital for psychiatric treatment and was a man with serious mental health issues and a violent disposition. The Justice/Health system didn't effectively deal with ensuring Frog Ward was no danger to himself or others. It failed, he died and the country was subject to a round of traveller bashing and defending that should never have happened.

There's no need for treating travellers any differently than anyone else, bar perhaps accommodating the nomadic lifestyle of those who can manage life on the road and providing for their kids education. We should be a proper Republic, all citizens treated equally, no nonsense about multiculturalism. Should the Anglo-Horsey set be allowed their Stag Hunts on account of their ethnicity?I've dealt with Travellers since I was a kid and in my working life, I met plenty of decent kind gentle Travellers and I've met plenty of aggressive travellers. Aggression is a useful tool in getting your own way, anyone who has a bit of aggresion/hint of menace about them will understand that people back down when you use your size or attitude in dealing with them. The use of "your discriminating against us" is another tool in the box, similar to the Israeli firing out of charges of anti-semitism at their critics.

I note that Frog Ward was from the generation of travellers that grew up in the 60s and 70s at the height of discrimination against them and at a time when he would have been battered in school for the crime of being a traveller. I can think of a few travellers from that age group that grew up to have serious problems, one of them has forced people from the estate he's living in. The law is incapable or unwilling to protect them from him.

Under Irish legislation the Anglo Horsey crowd (the bourgoise?) are not classified as an ethnicity however the travellers are.What you have more or less said there (excellent post btw) is more or less what we are all saying here, there is a few bad apples in every barrel and not everyone need use the excuse of the bad apples to tar everyone with the same brush. Aggression isa tool used all across the social strata and yes the use of the discrimination card makes it a less effective tool for those who really need it .

[C. Flower]

You refuse to acknowledge the word "some" in the judges statement and refer instead only to his use of the words ethnic group, yet you felt the need to refer to the judges FF affiliation.

Hypocritical if you ask me.

Well, firstly, I have quoted the word "some", but in order to understand someone's meaning, you have to read the whole statement, not just one word.
You have not shown any willingness to do so. You seem oblivious to the fact that no one makes such remarks to settled people, irrespective of how many settled "Neanderthals" appear in front of judges.

You are also completely wrong in saying I have mentioned FF in this thread.

It was only after reading your remark that I looked him up and find that he is a former FF TD who lost his seat.

I would not have been surprised if he had been Fine Gael. It is not a party political matter.

The term Neanderthal was not a random insult: he sought to single Travellers out and identify them as primitive and unruly.

Someone with so little awareness of his duty to give even handed and unprejudiced justice should not be on the Bench.

[C. Flower]

There's an awful lot of romantic nonsense in that article as well as plenty of truth.

We're not back in the 70s anymore, when the last of the horse drawn carriages were on the roads. The romantic Traveller tradition died out then, and it was a time of terrible discrimination against travellers. There were also health problems due to the lifestyle and cousins marrying due to the small genetic pool during the 70s and 80s which led to the bringing in of brides from England.

That discrimination led to traveller advocacy groups and the Religious orders started to weigh in behind them around the late 70s. The wars over hard-stands raged and travellers are now at a point where discrimination against them is based on a mixture of outright prejudice and the result of the criminal actions and anti-social behaviour of a sizeable minority of them.

They're entitled to the same €188 a week welfare as anyone else, the same housing entitlements and the same access to state services as everyone else. They also know how to get their benefits and exactly what they're entitled to. They have traveller training/education centres and the state is more than willing to help them.

The Judge is a prize plonker, always shooting his mouth off about something. The problem with traveller criminality and most other criminality/anti-social behaviour is down to the inability of the Justice system/social worker/rehabilitation system to deal with it.

Take Frog Ward, shot dead by another man, they should never have met under the circumstances they did. Ward had 80 convictions from 38 separate court appearances and had convictions for burglary, larceny and assault, he had twice been committed to hospital for psychiatric treatment and was a man with serious mental health issues and a violent disposition. The Justice/Health system didn't effectively deal with ensuring Frog Ward was no danger to himself or others. It failed, he died and the country was subject to a round of traveller bashing and defending that should never have happened.

There's no need for treating travellers any differently than anyone else, bar perhaps accommodating the nomadic lifestyle of those who can manage life on the road and providing for their kids education. We should be a proper Republic, all citizens treated equally, no nonsense about multiculturalism. Should the Anglo-Horsey set be allowed their Stag Hunts on account of their ethnicity?

I've dealt with Travellers since I was a kid and in my working life, I met plenty of decent kind gentle Travellers and I've met plenty of aggressive travellers. Aggression is a useful tool in getting your own way, anyone who has a bit of aggresion/hint of menace about them will understand that people back down when you use your size or attitude in dealing with them. The use of "you're discriminating against us" is another tool in the box, similar to the Israeli firing out of charges of anti-semitism at their critics.

I note that Frog Ward was from the generation of travellers that grew up in the 60s and 70s at the height of discrimination against them and at a time when he would have been battered in school for the crime of being a traveller. I can think of a few travellers from that age group that grew up to have serious problems, one of them has forced people from the estate he's living in. The law is incapable or unwilling to protect them from him.

Not romantic, historic, and attempting to give some perspective to their situation. If you look at the situation of Irish Travellers and other nomadic people who are under pressure to settle, you will find many of the same difficulties.

While travelling and stopping at many historic halting places has been illegalised, making Travellers more invisible, their difference and cohesiveness and distinctive as a group of people with a separate culture remains. I only got to know some Travellers well in the last ten years, so I'm not going back to the mists of time.

Travellers may get the same benefits, but they have to make a journey in Dublin to an office far from where they live, and the postal service won't deliver to halting sites, causing them all kinds of problems due to not receiving mail.

I agree with what you say about how very wrong things went for some Travellers - and about the uses of an aggressive manner - overall you're focused on the negative. There is far too little known and acknowledged about what is positive and worthwhile about Travellers' culture, and how the vast majority of Travellers are decent and worthwhile people.

[MPB]

Not romantic, historic, and attempting to give some perspective to their situation. If you look at the situation of Irish Travellers and other nomadic people who are under pressure to settle, you will find many of the same difficulties.

While travelling and stopping at many historic halting places has been illegalised, making Travellers more invisible, their difference and cohesiveness and distinctive as a group of people with a separate culture remains. I only got to know some Travellers well in the last ten years, so I'm not going back to the mists of time.

Travellers may get the same benefits, but they have to make a journey in Dublin to an office far from where they live, and the postal service won't deliver to halting sites, causing them all kinds of problems due to not receiving mail.

I agree with what you say about how very wrong things went for some Travellers - and about the uses of an aggressive manner - overall you're focused on the negative. There is far too little known and acknowledged about what is positive and worthwhile about Travellers' culture, and how the vast majority of Travellers are decent and worthwhile people.

Are you for real.

Where is this office in Dublin far from where they live?

What is their mode of transport that makes this journey so difficult?

Do you know any travellers without a car, jeep or van?

As for the post not being delivered to halting sites, you are having a laugh. Travellers will do everything possible to not receive post, like saying that they cannot read and therefore post is pointless and threatening postmen.

Of course none of this behaviour is their fault, it is mine.

[C. Flower]

Are you for real.

Where is this office in Dublin far from where they live?

What is their mode of transport that makes this journey so difficult?

Do you know any travellers without a car, jeep or van?

As for the post not being delivered to halting sites, you are having a laugh. Travellers will do everything possible to not receive post, like saying that they cannot read and therefore post is pointless and threatening postmen.

Of course none of this behaviour is their fault, it is mine.

Is this "some" Travellers, or Travellers in general, in your view...

[MPB]

Is this "some" Travellers, or Travellers in general, in your view...

Ah, you see that is always going to be the problem in this debate.

You don,t like the word "some" and refuse to acknowledge it,s importance, until I don,t mention it.

All travellers receive benefits and services provided by taxpayers. Some travellers are criminals and act like neanderthals.

You keep insinuating that I have a problem with all travellers, i.e I am racist.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I would never discriminate against anybody, because of their religion, race or culture.

But I make no apologies for disliking criminals and I don,t care who they are or where they come from.

You seem to know an awful lot about the living conditions and death rates of travellers, but do you know how many travellers live in Ireland, how many work in taxable employment, how many receive social welfare, how many own cars, how many have car insurance, how many applied for planning permission, how many have mortgages?

When you supply all of this information, you can defend your argument.

[C. Flower]

Ah, you see that is always going to be the problem in this debate.

You don,t like the word "some" and refuse to acknowledge it,s importance, until I don,t mention it.

All travellers receive benefits and services provided by taxpayers. Some travellers are criminals and act like neanderthals.

You keep insinuating that I have a problem with all travellers, i.e I am racist.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I would never discriminate against anybody, because of their religion, race or culture.

But I make no apologies for disliking criminals and I don,t care who they are or where they come from.

You seem to know an awful lot about the living conditions and death rates of travellers, but do you know how many travellers live in Ireland, how many work in taxable employment, how many receive social welfare, how many own cars, how many have car insurance, how many applied for planning permission, how many have mortgages?

When you supply all of this information, you can defend your argument.

I haven't mentioned Travellers' death rates. You miss the point on having to sign at a different office and not getting post. These things are discriminatory and inconvenient. The idea that Travellers living in halting sites (more or less settled as they are in most cases permanent sites) don't want to get mail delivered is for the birds. If a postman has a problem with an individual preventing him doing his job, he should call the Gardaí.

No one has gathered the statistics you are talking about, so far as I'm aware. But you still seem to be trying to build a profile of Travellers in general that doesn't fit all. There are Travellers who pay PAYE tax, and there would be a lot more of them if there was less discrimination.

[fluffybiscuits]

Ah, you see that is always going to be the problem in this debate.

You don,t like the word "some" and refuse to acknowledge it,s importance, until I don,t mention it.

All travellers receive benefits and services provided by taxpayers. Some travellers are criminals and act like neanderthals.

You keep insinuating that I have a problem with all travellers, i.e I am racist.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I would never discriminate against anybody, because of their religion, race or culture.

But I make no apologies for disliking criminals and I don,t care who they are or where they come from.

You seem to know an awful lot about the living conditions and death rates of travellers, but do you know how many travellers live in Ireland, how many work in taxable employment, how many receive social welfare, how many own cars, how many have car insurance, how many applied for planning permission, how many have mortgages?

When you supply all of this information, you can defend your argument.

The issue here is your refusal to acknowledge that the issues raised all afflict people across the social strata and not just those whom you mentioned . When we start making specific statements concerning race and infer some negative behaviours are hall marks of said race then we cross a line, especially when the behaviour is not group or race specific. You are the one with the burden of proof to look into this information if you want it as you are the one asking for it. I supplied the information on rates of death here in Ireland and showed you the issues they faced. So far I have seen nothing but conjecture from your good self and a handful of generalised statements so if anyone again has to back up their claims its yourself.

[MPB]

The issue here is your refusal to acknowledge that the issues raised all afflict people across the social strata and not just those whom you mentioned . When we start making specific statements concerning race and infer some negative behaviours are hall marks of said race then we cross a line, especially when the behaviour is not group or race specific. You are the one with the burden of proof to look into this information if you want it as you are the one asking for it. I supplied the information on rates of death here in Ireland and showed you the issues they faced. So far I have seen nothing but conjecture from your good self and a handful of generalised statements so if anyone again has to back up their claims its yourself.

I never said that the issues do not afflict all stratas of society.

I merely supported the Judges right to refer to the criminal element within this particular ethnic group as neanderthals.

If they are an ethnic group, it is not racist to talk about them as a seperate grouping in society.

Either they are to be recognised as an ethnic group or they are not. You cannot say that travellers are an ethnic group, while at the same time accusing a judge of being racist for referring to them as a particular ethnic group.

As for me sourcing the information. It is not available. It cannot be sourced. Why?

I bet I could find out about you, or you about me, if we had each others name and address, but yet I could never find out about an individual from a particular ethnic group.

[fluffybiscuits]

I never said that the issues do not afflict all stratas of society.

I merely supported the Judges right to refer to the criminal element within this particular ethnic group as neanderthals.

If they are an ethnic group, it is not racist to talk about them as a seperate grouping in society.

Either they are to be recognised as an ethnic group or they are not. You cannot say that travellers are an ethnic group, while at the same time accusing a judge of being racist for referring to them as a particular ethnic group.

As for me sourcing the information. It is not available. It cannot be sourced. Why?

I bet I could find out about you, or you about me, if we had each others name and address, but yet I could never find out about an individual from a particular ethnic group.

The linking of the ethnicity to the label of neanderthal is not a comment anyone should be making. If he had said people are neanderthals fair enough but as I say what has ethnicity got to do with it? Im not saying he is a racist or not but what the crux of the issue is why has ethnicity come into the equation when quite simply the point could have come across without the need to mention ethnicity. As for you sourcing information, I dont know why it cant be sourced, my crystal ball is cracked (it happens ) The judge has a right to refer to a context of the social strata by class but ethnicity or race is completely irrelevant to the situation