Judge Calls Travellers "Neanderthals" - Update: Phil Hogan and Billy Ireland Seem to Agree

[riposte]

It takes a Neanderthal to know a Neanderthal.

Holly .... with all due respect. ......this is pure nonsense. Can an Irishman not know an Englishman ....... can an American not know a Russian?

From what I'm told there are no Neanderthals around today to know anything.

[Holly]

Holly .... with all due respect. ......this is pure nonsense. Can an Irishman not know an Englishman ....... can an American not know a Russian?

It is not nonsense, riposte; it is a common idiom ... "It takes one to know one" and I explained its meaning to MPB before he went to bed.

From what I'm told there are no Neanderthals around today to know anything.

Don't believe everything you are told ... and you can take that from me.

[riposte]

It is not nonsense, riposte; it is a common idiom ... "It takes one to know one" and I explained its meaning to MPB before he went to bed.


Don't believe everything you are told ... and you can take that from me.

Holly .... the proposition that "Travellers" are a separate ethnic group is absolute bullshít and part of a recieved nonsense.

However .... Neanderthals are a scientifically designated different species.... which scientists tell me ......are extinct.

As for the common idiom "It takes one to know one" ...."aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile".. this is more recieved nonsense.. whether in English or Irish

I know an earwig when I see one ... but that doesn't make me an earwig. Have you ever seen an earwig sign up to Political world.

[MPB]

Fair enough...


Society oppresses them - they fight back against the system - where did the issue start? Answers on a postcard..

BTW I want low fat milk in my tea if you are making it...

Does society oppress them though?

Free housing, free money, an acceptance that they operate outside the system that applies to society in general.

A small story, just to let you know the way some travellers operate.

A friend of mine had a small but busy taxi business, one evening one of his drivers was bringing 8 travellers on a trip to Enniskillen, a trip no other taxi would take.

It was at the time of the big freeze and while travelling at 20 mph, the taxi slid and bumped into another car. No damage to either vehicle, driver or passenger.

Journey continued, travellers went on p1ss and were collected next day and brought home.

2 weeks later, a solicitors letter. 6 months and 98,000 euro later, no insurance, no taxi business and no job.

Society does not oppress them, it panders to them. Why? Because some of them, the bad element among them, take advantage of the goodness in a lot of travellers and the ignorance in the likes of yourself.

[C. Flower]

Does society oppress them though?

Free housing, free money, an acceptance that they operate outside the system that applies to society in general.

A small story, just to let you know the way some travellers operate.

A friend of mine had a small but busy taxi business, one evening one of his drivers was bringing 8 travellers on a trip to Enniskillen, a trip no other taxi would take.

It was at the time of the big freeze and while travelling at 20 mph, the taxi slid and bumped into another car. No damage to either vehicle, driver or passenger.

Journey continued, travellers went on p1ss and were collected next day and brought home.

2 weeks later, a solicitors letter. 6 months and 98,000 euro later, no insurance, no taxi business and no job.

Society does not oppress them, it panders to them. Why? Because some of them, the bad element among them, take advantage of the goodness in a lot of travellers and the ignorance in the likes of yourself.

I once watched a Court Case in which a Judge awarded a nice middle class settled woman thousands because her daughter had been bitten by a guinea pig. To listen to the evidence, elaborate medical reports, etc., you would have thought the child had been savaged by a tiger.

I doubt the zoo, a small business, survived the insurance increase.

Our stories don't really inform, about either Travellers or settled people.

Society discriminates against nomadic life inherently, because it does every thing it can to prevent it, bar outright legal banning.

I think there are two reasons why it can seem that Travellers are "difficult." One is that the individuals who are difficult are very visible. Law abiding, friendly, decent Travellers are many, but why would you notice them?

The other is cultural difference and being square pegs in round holes. A couple of years ago there was a "fracas" at a hospital in Kildare, according to the news. It was reported very negatively as a story of a near riot by possibly drunken Travellers. I rang the hospital the next day as this did not ring true to me. I spoke to someone who had been there and found that the grandmother of a family had been dying. Traveller tradition is very strongly that family should sit with that person at her death bed.
She had a lot of children and they had gone to be with her. Someone in reception had seen a lot of Travellers arriving, panicked, and locked them out.
After being refused entry, eventually the door was forced.

I can see that having more than one or two people at a bed side could be very disruptive at a ward. The answer perhaps would have been (in an ideal world) to find a space or room where they could have been together.

[C. Flower]

I am not angry Holly. Not one bit.

I am defending somebodies right to speak the truth, without being accused of being a racist.

I think you and others have jumped on a populist bandwagon and think that you have let yourselves down.

You have taken C Flowers thread as gospel, without reading it.

It was wrong and in being wrong it accused somebody of being racist, when it was obvious they were not.

It was sensationalist and that sensationalism has brought about a mob instinct in people.

There is nothing inaccurate or sensationalist in my OP.

This is what the judge said.

Nobody has indicated it to me, but I suspect he comes from a certain ethnic background that would give him even more form given the type of behaviour in which some of them engage… As I’ve described it before, they are like Neanderthal men living in the long grass, abiding by the laws of the jungle.

He clearly asserts that Travellers have "more form" - if you think that the "some" did not apply to the group as a whole, I think you are wrong. He is referring to the ethnic group.

If he was only referring to a few individuals, why mention it at all?

[Sam Lord]

Holly .... the proposition that "Travellers" are a separate ethnic group is absolute bullshít and part of a recieved nonsense.

Perhaps you could share with us what criteria of an ethnic group they do not meet instead of just expecting us to accept your pronouncement.

[MPB]

There is nothing inaccurate or sensationalist in my OP.

This is what the judge said.



He clearly asserts that Travellers have "more form" - if you think that the "some" did not apply to the group as a whole, I think you are wrong. He is referring to the ethnic group.

If he was only referring to a few individuals, why mention it at all?

You refuse to acknowledge the word "some" in the judges statement and refer instead only to his use of the words ethnic group, yet you felt the need to refer to the judges FF affiliation.

Hypocritical if you ask me.

[fluffybiscuits]

Does society oppress them though?

Free housing, free money, an acceptance that they operate outside the system that applies to society in general.

A small story, just to let you know the way some travellers operate.

A friend of mine had a small but busy taxi business, one evening one of his drivers was bringing 8 travellers on a trip to Enniskillen, a trip no other taxi would take.

It was at the time of the big freeze and while travelling at 20 mph, the taxi slid and bumped into another car. No damage to either vehicle, driver or passenger.

Journey continued, travellers went on p1ss and were collected next day and brought home.

2 weeks later, a solicitors letter. 6 months and 98,000 euro later, no insurance, no taxi business and no job.

Society does not oppress them, it panders to them. Why? Because some of them, the bad element among them, take advantage of the goodness in a lot of travellers and the ignorance in the likes of yourself.

Ah but there you are falling into the same trap as a lot of the those who whine consistently about the immigrants. Again I'll lay it out for you, what free housing? A lot of travellers live on halting sites with limited access to facilities and have one of the shortest life expectantcies of any people in Ireland. Secondly to get free money they must have a fixed abode and therefore if they move around they will not. Strange, you did not throw in free prams and other ridiculous grants the immigrants get in your statement What happened to your mate was a shame and horrible incident but this is not travellers, this is eight individuals who done him over. Again this type of behaviour has no boundaries like the guy who the crap kicked out of him outside club Annabels in Ballsbridge to the guys who rob grannies on Talbot St, these issues effect everyone across the social strata. Society has created this image that they are some sort of people with lots of cash and sc rewing people over. If I were you I would get out more and stop watching box sets of anything by Channel 4 on travellers...

[MPB]

Ah but there you are falling into the same trap as a lot of the those who whine consistently about the immigrants. Again I'll lay it out for you, what free housing? A lot of travellers live on halting sites with limited access to facilities and have one of the shortest life expectantcies of any people in Ireland. Secondly to get free money they must have a fixed abode and therefore if they move around they will not. Strange, you did not throw in free prams and other ridiculous grants the immigrants get in your statement What happened to your mate was a shame and horrible incident but this is not travellers, this is eight individuals who done him over. Again this type of behaviour has no boundaries like the guy who the crap kicked out of him outside club Annabels in Ballsbridge to the guys who rob grannies on Talbot St, these issues effect everyone across the social strata. Society has created this image that they are some sort of people with lots of cash and sc rewing people over. If I were you I would get out more and stop watching box sets of anything by Channel 4 on travellers...

Travellers only live where they choose to live. Have you ever been on a halting site? I have and they are very well serviced.

Most, tend to live in estates and are housed by local councils or the HSE.

The reason they have a younger death rate is because of the way some travellers choose to live.

By the way, nobody mentioned immigrants, but of course the race card is always played by the likes of yourself when you cannot defend your initial argument, which was the jump all over the FF Judge for referring to "some" travellers as neanderthals.

[riposte]

Perhaps you could share with us what criteria of an ethnic group they do not meet instead of just expecting us to accept your pronouncement.

I have to admit that it's disconcerting for me that you won't accept my pronouncements.

[fluffybiscuits]

Travellers only live where they choose to live. Have you ever been on a halting site? I have and they are very well serviced.

Most, tend to live in estates and are housed by local councils or the HSE.

The reason they have a younger death rate is because of the way some travellers choose to live.

By the way, nobody mentioned immigrants, but of course the race card is always played by the likes of yourself when you cannot defend your initial argument, which was the jump all over the FF Judge for referring to "some" travellers as neanderthals.

But this is what the whole debate is about MPB, Irish Travellers are a recognised ethnicity under Irish legislation and are therefore any vitrol or abuse aimed at them can therefore be classed as racism. This is not a race card , its simply a fact that by virtue of them being a race and they are subjected to persecution for being members of a race that could be defined as racism. Im not saying you are racist but you get my point.


The range of issues that affect travellers health is huge. Have a read of the following report from the HSE:

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/aith...l.pdf?direct=1

On page 55 read the number of observed deaths of travellers of certain conditions and the expected amount of deaths as per the table. There is a huge discrepancy. There is a huge spike in those whom are suffering from mental illness and which in a lot of cases contributed to suicide,this in itself is the cry of a marginalised people.

Read about the conditions of some of the halting sites

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/lo...site-1-3523646

Jimmy Carty, his wife and seven children, two of whom have spina bifida, live in a damp caravan in the overcrowded St Catherine’s halting site along with a number of horses and dogs on the outskirts of Kilkenny City.

Mr Carty lives in one of 12 trailers on the site along with 69 other people. His trailer is in the shadow of an 10 foot wall that was built to separate St Catherine’s from the Margaret’s field development. The lack of sunlight has resulted in the caravan becoming damp and infested with mildew. There is only cold running water in the caravan and the two wheelchair bound children have to negotiate crude steps made from cinder blocks to enter their home. A second caravan on the site housing a newly married couple and their toddler has no running water and no sewage facilities at all.

http://corkindependent.com/stories/i...39/Third-world

“The whole place should just be bulldozed and the whole thing knocked down. All they (Cork City Council) are worried about is the outsiders here because they are illegally parked. It was only supposed to be a temporary site 23 years ago, they said it would only take a couple of years before we would be housed.”
Many of the trailers at the site have no running water, electricity or heating and there are huge health and safety concern for residents especially young schoolchildren.

You should bear in mind bud that google is your friend....

[MPB]

But this is what the whole debate is about MPB, Irish Travellers are a recognised ethnicity under Irish legislation and are therefore any vitrol or abuse aimed at them can therefore be classed as racism. This is not a race card , its simply a fact that by virtue of them being a race and they are subjected to persecution for being members of a race that could be defined as racism. Im not saying you are racist but you get my point.


The range of issues that affect travellers health is huge. Have a read of the following report from the HSE:

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/aith...l.pdf?direct=1

On page 55 read the number of observed deaths of travellers of certain conditions and the expected amount of deaths as per the table. There is a huge discrepancy. There is a huge spike in those whom are suffering from mental illness and which in a lot of cases contributed to suicide,this in itself is the cry of a marginalised people.

Read about the conditions of some of the halting sites

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/lo...site-1-3523646



http://corkindependent.com/stories/i...39/Third-world



You should bear in mind bud that google is your friend....

I have no problem with travellers being recognised as an ethnic group. None what so ever.

I have a problem with a thread that accuses a judge of racism because he referred to the criminal element within this ethnic group as neanderthal.

As for your argument about an ethnic group who regard themselves as travellers, i.e those who prefer to move around and rome, not receiving state provided housing and services...well that is just nuts.

Would you be allowed build a home anywhere you wanted?

Would you be allowed tell somebody else to build you a home, wherever you wanted at no cost to yourself?

No, you would not. Why should you be discriminated against, just to appease a minority ethnic group?

[fluffybiscuits]

I have no problem with travellers being recognised as an ethnic group. None what so ever.

I have a problem with a thread that accuses a judge of racism because he referred to the criminal element within this ethnic group as neanderthal.

As for your argument about an ethnic group who regard themselves as travellers, i.e those who prefer to move around and rome, not receiving state provided housing and services...well that is just nuts.

Would you be allowed build a home anywhere you wanted?

Would you be allowed tell somebody else to build you a home, wherever you wanted at no cost to yourself?

No, you would not. Why should you be discriminated against, just to appease a minority ethnic group?

Its a way of life that does not affect us. Where something becomes detriment to my way of being that is when something ceases to be a right but if a traveller wants to set up camp down the road from me (as they have behind Thomas St) they are more than welcome to and its no skin off my nose.

Why is my claim that they cant claim benefits nut? You need a permenant address to claim benefits...

[MPB]

Its a way of life that does not affect us. Where something becomes detriment to my way of being that is when something ceases to be a right but if a traveller wants to set up camp down the road from me (as they have behind Thomas St) they are more than welcome to and its no skin off my nose.

Why is my claim that they cant claim benefits nut? You need a permenant address to claim benefits...

Off course it is skin off everybodies nose. Who pays to clean up after them,when they camp at the side of the road? Who pays for the halting sites? Who pays the social welfare, childrens allowance, medical cards, hospital visits etc.

We do. They don,t.