Huge march in Barcelona on Catalonias national day

[Ogiol]

Madrid are sabre-rattling, refering to their incredibly democratic constitution which anoints the army as the guaranteurs of spains unity. We'll just have to see about that though.(Im not so sure europe wants another 1936 after what happened last time)

Now that the basque left-independentists are allowed to stand in elections (after another democratic coup a few years ago by the madrid government it looks fairly certain that pro independence parties there (left and less so right) will gain about a 65-35 majority in basque parliament elections this octuber. The only question that remains there is if the right (pnv - no so clear on indep) or the left (very clear on indep) will win that electoral battle, though it seems to favour the right so far.

In any case, the further down the road catalunya goes to independence the more the basques will follow. That is even more the case now that ETA have called a permanent halt to their armed campaign.

Oh and because their proposed ministers are not drawn from lifelong political backgrounds, rather academia and business/work experience. The leader of their campaign is particularly impressive (laura mintegi) (sorry, dont have any links in english).

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Thanks for that update Ogiol! The noises coming from a right wing group of former army personnel about the army being the defenders of the current constitution of Spain is seriously the wrong way to go for the Madrid-backers.

It is always a disaster when some powerbloc either threatens to or attempts to quash separatism- always cause the pendulum of public opinion to begin swinging towards the separatists.

Amazing how conservative bully tactics always causes a backlash and conservatives fail to learn from history in this regard.

Remember how quickly public opinion in Dublin swung away from the Crown and towards the nationalists when the military in Dublin made the mistake of shooting the leaders of 1916.

The Times and the Independent in 1916 had editorials calling for the strongest possible measures against the rebels- but that proved to be a mistake in the court of public opinion in the end. The notion of a Madrid led falange attempting to force Catalunya would be a disaster in the end and would probably prove the final nail in the coffin as regards Catalunya being a region of Spain.

[Ogiol]

It is a historical mistake, certainly. However, they have gotten away with it in the past, most recently in 1936. For this reason i believe that they still think that they can bully the catalans to stay with spain. The catalans, though, have been much more shrewd this time and are spending significant time energy and money on selling their position internationally, mainly because they realise that if the world is watching, and somewhat sympathetic, then madrid will not be able to stop a democratic march towards freedom with tanks and whatnot.
Sad to say, but the situation seems a bit like democracy vs. fascism all over again. I just hope europe takes the right course of action this time.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I hope the Catalans are aware of those who occasionally jump on the Catalan nationalism bus as well ... have read a bit lately about the various movements on the old 'left' from communists (who were a bloody disaster and basically gifted the falangists victory after victory in that disastrous war) to the anarchists who were, paradoxically, it seemed to me to be better organised.

Communists are bloody dangerous to have on your side with their demand for centralised committee power as they proved over and over again in those dreadful years.

I wonder what mix across the old political spectrum is driving Catalan independence now?

[Ogiol]

Well, as you know well things have changed, and alot

back in the day 1936, catalonia didnt fight for independence, but the republic, then for survival. Nowadays they are ALOT more confidant about their culture, language and heritage, and as adifference from that era, the new generation are less willing to stand for anything less that full and complete equality with castillian. That, of course, is not forthcoming from madrid, and in essence that is where the huge push for independence originated. (in 2010 the courts quashed the new statute of autonomy, which, had been voted for by the same spanish governement and passed a referendum in catalunya. Basically is gave the catalans more autonomy and linguistic rights).

So as to the compostiion, its very hard to say, there seems to be a large chunk of society, from left to right behind the movement. For example, the other day they voted on a motion calling for a referendum on independence after the next elections and it was supported by Ciu (centre-right governing party) ERC (pseudo centre left catalan opposition party- quite small) ICV (eco-left party - quite small and the furthest left in the parlament) as well as a centrist pro-independence party with a few seats.
So, the only ones who opposed were teh PP catalan (obviously) and a radical right wing party (Ciutadans).. where as the PSEO (socialists) catalan branch abstained.

In a lot less words, politically, its a broad left right coalition. ;P

[fluffybiscuits]

Catalonia is a rich developed economy. Important sectors include the pharmaceutical sector and the IT sector. Catalonia is not Andalucia, it does not ''depend'' on tourism.

And on another note, catalan elections announced for november, with a promise of a plebescite during the next term. Poc a poc

Thanks for clearing that up Would the economy suffer do you think if Catalonia left?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Well, as you know well things have changed, and alot

back in the day 1936, catalonia didnt fight for independence, but the republic, then for survival. Nowadays they are ALOT more confidant about their culture, language and heritage, and as adifference from that era, the new generation are less willing to stand for anything less that full and complete equality with castillian. That, of course, is not forthcoming from madrid, and in essence that is where the huge push for independence originated. (in 2010 the courts quashed the new statute of autonomy, which, had been voted for by the same spanish governement and passed a referendum in catalunya. Basically is gave the catalans more autonomy and linguistic rights).

So as to the compostiion, its very hard to say, there seems to be a large chunk of society, from left to right behind the movement. For example, the other day they voted on a motion calling for a referendum on independence after the next elections and it was supported by Ciu (centre-right governing party) ERC (pseudo centre left catalan opposition party- quite small) ICV (eco-left party - quite small and the furthest left in the parlament) as well as a centrist pro-independence party with a few seats.
So, the only ones who opposed were teh PP catalan (obviously) and a radical right wing party (Ciutadans).. where as the PSEO (socialists) catalan branch abstained.

In a lot less words, politically, its a broad left right coalition. ;P

Thanks a lot for this Ogiol- the sort of info we can't pick up from broad brush articles in El Pais and so on!

Very interesting to read your take on the width of the support base for Catalunya. I did read Beevor's 'Battle for Spain' relatively recently and was confirmed in my frustration with the shades of the left and was left with a gloomy analysis of how the Communists in particular doomed the Republic with their admittedly Bolshevik/Stalinist religion of central control and the infighting that caused with some groups who were more efficient in fighting the Right/Falange.

More hopeful now that Catalunya can find a way through- you'll know you are winning when there is an argument internally whether a form of Home Rule should be accepted or whether a strike for an independent Republic is the way forward.

Visca Catalunya

[PaddyJoe]

The level of vitriol directed towards Catalan nationalists coming from the Spanish right is getting nastier on a daily basis. Last week Alejo Vidal-Quadras, Deputy President of the European Parliament, said that the Catalan Parliament should be dissolved and the armed Guardia Civil sent to take over policing.
Today Pedro J Ramirez, editor of a national daily, El Mundo, is using 'Seig Heil' in tweets about Catalan 'nazionalistas"

[Ogiol]

The level of vitriol directed towards Catalan nationalists coming from the Spanish right is getting nastier on a daily basis. Last week Alejo Vidal-Quadras, Deputy President of the European Parliament, said that the Catalan Parliament should be dissolved and the armed Guardia Civil sent to take over policing.
Today Pedro J Ramirez, editor of a national daily, El Mundo, is using 'Seig Heil' in tweets about Catalan 'nazionalistas"

the castillian elite are showing their true colours! bout time too, all this pretending to be democrats was waring thin

opinion polls for the up coming catalan elections (called in reaction to the big march) show CiU steady or gaining a few and around an overall majority. Both unionist parties are showing seat drop (+30%) while the two main left wing parties (ERC and ICV) show gains. Both of these parties could overtake PP and maybe PSOE too. Interesting campaign, though i wouldnt trust CiU as far as i could colectively throw them. they are neo liberal curs

still though, the more bilis from madrid the more likely independence becomes i believe.

[Ogiol]

Thanks a lot for this Ogiol- the sort of info we can't pick up from broad brush articles in El Pais and so on!

Very interesting to read your take on the width of the support base for Catalunya. I did read Beevor's 'Battle for Spain' relatively recently and was confirmed in my frustration with the shades of the left and was left with a gloomy analysis of how the Communists in particular doomed the Republic with their admittedly Bolshevik/Stalinist religion of central control and the infighting that caused with some groups who were more efficient in fighting the Right/Falange.

More hopeful now that Catalunya can find a way through- you'll know you are winning when there is an argument internally whether a form of Home Rule should be accepted or whether a strike for an independent Republic is the way forward.

Visca Catalunya

ur welcome cptn.

Im still not convinced whether CiU (Artur Mas' governing party) will go for independence. They are all about the money, typical right wing elite party. However, as is clear from much economic analysis, catalonia would be way better off independent.

Naturally I'd prefer a left wing led independence, just to make sure they dont make the same mistakes as we did, but it will be interesting to see if Mas can be a great statesman and lead his country to the promised land, and not just a pawn to the moguls.

Supose we'll see soon enough!

[Ogiol]

I have to apologise to all for the lack of sources and links for my posts, but all i have is mainly in catalan and sometimes in spanish.

However, i would like to post this excelent article by Esther Vivas, which although its in spanish, is very much worth the read as it cuts to the bone regarding catalan independence and spanish democracy. Excellent piece of journalism.

http://blogs.publico.es/esther-vivas...-en-barcelona/

[Dr. FIVE]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19799572

[Ogiol]

In a new twist in the evolving push toward independence of catalonia, the spanish minister for education came out a few days ago and, in the spanish congress, decalred that he wished to ''hispanicize or / hispanify catalan children''.

Loud and clear mr. Wert (curious that a spanish fascist has a german surname), finally facing up to the reality of castillian dominated spanish state policy. Suppose the settlement agreed upon post dictatorship was only because of the shame of having participated in that same dictatorship.

http://international.reagrupament.cat/?p=4155

[PaddyJoe]

In a new twist in the evolving push toward independence of catalonia, the spanish minister for education came out a few days ago and, in the spanish congress, decalred that he wished to ''hispanicize or / hispanify catalan children''.

Loud and clear mr. Wert (curious that a spanish fascist has a german surname), finally facing up to the reality of castillian dominated spanish state policy. Suppose the settlement agreed upon post dictatorship was only because of the shame of having participated in that same dictatorship.

http://international.reagrupament.cat/?p=4155

If the PP was deliberately trying to inflame Catalans it really couldn't do any better.
Juan Carlos, who traditionally remains aloof from party politics, used national day ceremonies last week to take it up with Rajoy.

[Ogiol]

If the PP was deliberately trying to inflame Catalans it really couldn't do any better.
Juan Carlos, who traditionally remains aloof from party politics, used national day ceremonies last week to take it up with Rajoy.

Indeed the PP are playing a blinder!

the whole Juan Carlos affair was just a coreographed publicity stunt 4 the monarchy. I think.