Huge march in Barcelona on Catalonias national day

[Ogiol]

Mas (the catalan president) had a meeting today with the group who called for the independence march on the 11th. Not much detail being made public apart from the usual political assurances.. etc.

however, on the 20th theres a meeting with rajoy (fascist party leader and president) where they are to discuss mas' long sought after catalan fiscal pact (autonomy). All indications are that rajoy will just tell him to go ...... off.

So then, after bout 2 million people on the streets for independence (apart from richards brother most analysts agree that new elections are on the cards for catalonia very soon, which in reality will be a plebicite on independence. The financial times are talking about how the recession and crises may well be looking at its first ''nation-state '' casuality. It does note however, that spain has always been a plurinational state. (phew)

the article from the FT http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/cd7d6...#axzz26ToB48oh

[PaddyJoe]

Mas (the catalan president) had a meeting today with the group who called for the independence march on the 11th. Not much detail being made public apart from the usual political assurances.. etc.

however, on the 20th theres a meeting with rajoy (fascist party leader and president) where they are to discuss mas' long sought after catalan fiscal pact (autonomy). All indications are that rajoy will just tell him to go ...... off.

So then, after bout 2 million people on the streets for independence (apart from richards brother most analysts agree that new elections are on the cards for catalonia very soon, which in reality will be a plebicite on independence. The financial times are talking about how the recession and crises may well be looking at its first ''nation-state '' casuality. It does note however, that spain has always been a plurinational state. (phew)

the article from the FT http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/cd7d6...#axzz26ToB48oh

The debt issue is huge. Catalunya has the highest debt/GDP ratio at 22% of any of the autonomous communities. Problem is of course is that it pays much more to central government in tax receipts than it gets back.
As an independent state it could be pretty close to running a balanced budget.

[Ogiol]

The debt issue is huge. Catalunya has the highest debt/GDP ratio at 22% of any of the autonomous communities. Problem is of course is that it pays much more to central government in tax receipts than it gets back.
As an independent state it could be pretty close to running a balanced budget.

Which is precisely the argument being used by CiU and all the other nationalist parites/groupings. And to huge effect too!

Apart from all that, they wouldnt have the spanish courts grabbing their balls every few years about their language etc. (something which certainly was a major contributor to this independence wave: i.e. 2010 and 1 million on the streets of BCN over courts quashing of their voted upon autonomous statute).

Its my belief that this push for independence is being helped by the economic circumstances but its root is firmly in the ground of cultural discrimination, something which has been sown throughout the 20th century and right up to the present.

[PaddyJoe]

Which is precisely the argument being used by CiU and all the other nationalist parites/groupings. And to huge effect too!

Apart from all that, they wouldnt have the spanish courts grabbing their balls every few years about their language etc. (something which certainly was a major contributor to this independence wave: i.e. 2010 and 1 million on the streets of BCN over courts quashing of their voted upon autonomous statute).

Its my belief that this push for independence is being helped by the economic circumstances but its root is firmly in the ground of cultural discrimination, something which has been sown throughout the 20th century and right up to the present.

Certainly a greater degree of autonomy is on the cards here. As far as I know one of the significant differences between the Basque Country and Catalunya is that the Basques are responsible for collecting their own taxes and then sending a contribution to Madrid. The Catalans have always been more constrained by central government in taxation and revenue gathering.
By the way, I see that RNE (Spanish national TV) has had to apologise for pushing the Diada march to the fifth item on national evening news bulletins

[Ogiol]

Certainly a greater degree of autonomy is on the cards here. As far as I know one of the significant differences between the Basque Country and Catalunya is that the Basques are responsible for collecting their own taxes and then sending a contribution to Madrid. The Catalans have always been more constrained by central government in taxation and revenue gathering.
By the way, I see that RNE (Spanish national TV) has had to apologise for pushing the Diada march to the fifth item on national evening news bulletins

That is indeed the main fundamental difference between the current basque and catalan system. It stems, though, historically and legally from the castillian punishment of the catalans after their failed independence bid back at the start of the 18th century (the same wars where portugal and holland did gain their independence). After that as punishment, their 'fueros' or 'foros' were removed, aka. they were treated as just a province (as murcia, la mancha or leon,).

I personally dont see more autonomy on the cards, for reasons of hundreds of years of tradition. (the castillians really hate the catalans, and maybe because 10 million speakers of a different language are more of a cultural threat than 2 million basques). The spanish centralist are like religious fundamentalists with regard to the sacrosanct unity of the state. They wont budge and that will in turn force the catalans to push for independence.

Whatever happens it promises to be an interesting winter! or as they say winter is coming

[PaddyJoe]

President of the Catalan government, Artur Mas, has called early elections for 25th November. This follows Madrid's refusal to negotiate on changes to powers on regional spending.
Meanwhile retired army generals have been sabre rattling again about moves towards Catalan independence.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Interesting article here in from the English language edition of El Pais on upcoming maneouvers around the issue of Catalan secession ... mention of possible moves by the Madrid Government among which is the suggestion of moving to a Federal system of regional governments. http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/09/25/...59_862689.html

It appears that Rajoy's ploy may be to force Arturo Mat to seek secession and use secessionary language in a key debate in the Madrid parliament which is a trap that former Catalan premier's have fallen into.

Some hardball politics on the way in Spain alright.

[fluffybiscuits]

Interesting article here in from the English language edition of El Pais on upcoming maneouvers around the issue of Catalan secession ... mention of possible moves by the Madrid Government among which is the suggestion of moving to a Federal system of regional governments. http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/09/25/...59_862689.html

It appears that Rajoy's ploy may be to force Arturo Mat to seek secession and use secessionary language in a key debate in the Madrid parliament which is a trap that former Catalan premier's have fallen into.

Some hardball politics on the way in Spain alright.

Saw the footage from El Pais last night and the pigs having a go at the protestors . Serves to only undermine the credibility of the police in Spain. On another note, this may force the Catalans to seek to gain more autonomy as they are the industrial powerhouse of Spain but there is one barrier to this. If they are to leave then they would perhaps not be in the EU, this would mean that some companies working there may find themselves paying tarriffs when exporting goods and this would make it unattractive for a lot of the companies there. While unemployment is pretty low there, this could all change.

Not too sure on the political manouvres that Rajopy might use, Im not well up on it!

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I don't understand what the problem might be. Leaving the EU means you could default and immediately set corporate rax rates at 5% and individual tax rates at 5%. Bit of a prob if its the Sudan or some other complete hole but Catalunya has Barcelona, one of the Europe's great cities, plenty of beaches and so on.

Leaving the EU must look mighty tempting. I have to laugh when I hear EU greymen saying no region 'can' leave the EU.

If somewhere like Catalonia or Greece or wherever says '***** off' Brussels and defaults what is Brussels going to do about it?

Issue a strongly worded statement of regret? Gee whizz. Wouldn't that be awful.

[fluffybiscuits]

I don't understand what the problem might be. Leaving the EU means you could default and immediately set corporate rax rates at 5% and individual tax rates at 5%. Bit of a prob if its the Sudan or some other complete hole but Catalunya has Barcelona, one of the Europe's great cities, plenty of beaches and so on.

Leaving the EU must look mighty tempting. I have to laugh when I hear EU greymen saying no region 'can' leave the EU.

If somewhere like Catalonia or Greece or wherever says '***** off' Brussels and defaults what is Brussels going to do about it?

Issue a strongly worded statement of regret? Gee whizz. Wouldn't that be awful.

More than likely what would happen is that Catalonia as a new nation if it were to happen would sign up to the EEA like the Swiss ,Norwegians and Icelanders did therefore would have to be in competition. Not sure if a 5% corporate tax rate would pay many dividends as resources are limited and the boom sector from what I understand is becoming tourism .

[PaddyJoe]

The Spanish vice prime minister, Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría, fired a new warning shot today on the prospects for a referendum on Catalan independence.
"Such a poll would not be in accordance with the Constitution and I want to say two things: not alone are there legal and judicial instruments to prevent a referendum in Catalonia but there is also a government, this government, which is prepared to use them"
She went on to say that Catalan independence is a matter which affects all Spanish citizens and it is up to all to make decisions on the extent of the national territories.

"Esa convocatoria no sería conforme con la Constitución y le digo dos cosas: no sólo hay instrumentos jurídicos y judiciales para pararlos, sino además hay un Gobierno, este Gobierno, que está dispuetsó a usarlos",

http://www.publico.es/espana/443065/...sulta-catalana

[MPB]

So a banking collapse, followed by recession, followed by the decimation of private wealth by Govts on behalf of the connected banks, followed by mass unemployment, followed by a global depression, followed by the collapse of previous popular Govt Parties, followed by the rise of the far left and possibly in response, the far right, followed by civil war in Spain..... this is starting to look eerily familiar.

[Ogiol]

More than likely what would happen is that Catalonia as a new nation if it were to happen would sign up to the EEA like the Swiss ,Norwegians and Icelanders did therefore would have to be in competition. Not sure if a 5% corporate tax rate would pay many dividends as resources are limited and the boom sector from what I understand is becoming tourism .

Catalonia is a rich developed economy. Important sectors include the pharmaceutical sector and the IT sector. Catalonia is not Andalucia, it does not ''depend'' on tourism.

And on another note, catalan elections announced for november, with a promise of a plebescite during the next term. Poc a poc

[PaddyJoe]

Catalonia is a rich developed economy. Important sectors include the pharmaceutical sector and the IT sector. Catalonia is not Andalucia, it does not ''depend'' on tourism.

And on another note, catalan elections announced for november, with a promise of a plebescite during the next term. Poc a poc

Categoric ruling out of a referendum by the PP today, though. "Over our dead bodies" kind of stuff.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

The nightmare scenario for the Madrid government must be noises coming from the Basque region as well.

Anyone familiar with the state of play recently with Basque seperatism?