Huge march in Barcelona on Catalonias national day

[Ogiol]

Huge celebrations in Barcelona today, marking catalonias national day. Apart from that, it certainly seems that the majority want full independence.

Estimates of the turn out generally agree that there are more than 1 million people on the streets and some raise that to closer to 2 millions. Still happening at the mo, so if you want to have a look

www.tv3.cat

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...n-independence

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking57.html

BTW completely pacific and festival atmosphere! under the slogan ''catalonia, new european state''

Edit: the first official figures are saying that there 1.5 million attendents! Absolutely huge.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Visca Catalunya Lliure! Good to see. Best of luck to them. They've been trying for self-determination now for at least 300 years as far as I know.

Spain, or that collection of states currently known as Spain, is a bit of a pointer in a possible essay explaining why democracy only works up to a certain geographic and population spread and is unlikely thereafter.

That would be an interesting thread mebbe.

[Ogiol]

Visca Catalunya Lliure! Good to see. Best of luck to them. They've been trying for self-determination now for at least 300 years as far as I know.

Spain, or that collection of states currently known as Spain, is a bit of a pointer in a possible essay explaining why democracy only works up to a certain geographic and population spread and is unlikely thereafter.

That would be an interesting thread mebbe.

Damn right it would captn! Actually this date marks the anniversery of the ending of the siege of Barcelona when the catalans lost their last independent state, back in 1714, so almost 300 years ago. Interestingly its one of the few countries that celebrate their national day on the date of a huge military defeat!

Interestingly, if this crisis continues, we could be looking at the break up of the Castillian Empire (UPPS, Spain).

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Good. Madrid has been a black hole sucking away at far more interesting states anyway. I've a personal beef with King Juan Carlos anyway. I got into a bit of a 'piss*ff' moment in Nice with his security people once when this limo pulled up outside an expensive hotel and some heavies blocked the path. Carlos swept past not having to share the path with non-royalty. I'm sure civilisation was advanced a jot in that moment.

We should push for Andorran entry to the EU. Then Catalan would be a recognised and official European language and Carlos's head would explode and that would be good.

[PaddyJoe]

Huge celebrations in Barcelona today, marking catalonias national day. Apart from that, it certainly seems that the majority want full independence.

Estimates of the turn out generally agree that there are more than 1 million people on the streets and some raise that to closer to 2 millions. Still happening at the mo, so if you want to have a look

www.tv3.cat

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...n-independence

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking57.html

BTW completely pacific and festival atmosphere! under the slogan ''catalonia, new european state''

Edit: the first official figures are saying that there 1.5 million attendents! Absolutely huge.

Absolutely huge.
Brussels says that it doesn't have any official opinion on the independence movement in Catalunya except to say that if a region of a EU member proclaims its independence it should be recognised as such by the international community and if it wished to become a member of the EU it would have to apply for membership.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

They would be better off declaring independence and staying out of the EU. Much as it sticks in my throat to advise this there is room for a major European city such as Barca to devise its own low tax regime and become a haven.

Going into the EU would open up Catalunya to yet more attempts to homogenise it into the 'European experiment' and that should be diametrically opposite the aims of independent Catalunya.

[fluffybiscuits]

Catalonia from reading up has a huge manufacturing industry with it accounting for something like 19% of Spanish output? (Short intro here quite good http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&...IJcpVLJooV7JGw) . This and Scotland could lead to the impetus for a new set of states to arise around Europe and may see other areas perhaps look for indpendence and mould a new Europe. Im interested to know if there is any other states like this in Europe (perhaps Basque country, Bretons?) . Anyone any other thoughts?

[Sam Lord]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu9rbNlWRe4"]Ferran Savall~Els Segadors - YouTube[/ame]

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Catalonia from reading up has a huge manufacturing industry with it accounting for something like 19% of Spanish output? (Short intro here quite good http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&...IJcpVLJooV7JGw) . This and Scotland could lead to the impetus for a new set of states to arise around Europe and may see other areas perhaps look for indpendence and mould a new Europe. Im interested to know if there is any other states like this in Europe (perhaps Basque country, Bretons?) . Anyone any other thoughts?

Right now the more nationalism the better. And no, that does not mean I want to see torchlight processions and 'Nurembergs'.

More designed democracy, John Lewis's and Co-ops would be the ticket for me with excessive nationalism which produces anything more than quite pride in one's birthplace being rightly regarded with caution.

I'd love to see Scotland and Catalunya and other regions around the 'EU' begin a slow heave...

[Ogiol]

Once again Id have to agree with that 100% captain. Also, that sense of pride is something badly missing in Ireland.

Regarding Catalonia & Scotland, the very process of 'becoming' independent would be a crash course in democracy, in becoming an active member of civil society, and for that reason I can only see positives from their potential independence.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Liking to watch dynamics at play as they curl around socially I have wondered whether the policy change in regional and local level politics towards 'localisation' is something that might feed into a basic re-assessment in many places around Europe.

In Germany itself many local municipalities are still trying to come to terms with what the banking crisis means for them at state-bank level and I know behind all the Euro posturing all is not well domestically there. There is I think something of a groundswell of dismay at the indulgence by local authorities in arcane derivatives by fund-holders there and with the sometimes idiosyncratic German voters tending to vote local this may provide a Parliamentary crosswind at national political level in Germany.

How far will the German voter go with Merkel in assuming what they see as bills for fecklessness abroad? Will the German voter realise that German banks have more than paid their part in that Euro fecklessness? There are still investigations ongoing in Frankfurt which may come up with some startling news for the German voter and quite possibly at the worst juncture possible for Frau Merkel's party heading into the apparently endless round of German elections.

'Localisation' seems to be a bit of a buzzword in UK local government circles as well these days I notice and I wonder whether the pendulum of sentiment against 'bigger is better' will be reflected in policy shifts regionally in the UK. Add to that the Frankenstein of UK politics- the notorious tory faultline over Europe and UK sovereignty via the City of London influence and the distinct possibility of Cameron being caught as tory PM's usually are in the UK between the rock of the City of London and the hard place of the Merkel/Barroso demand for federalism and I see only vetos on the horizon there and quite possibly an unscheduled election in the UK in which UK/European relations will, alarmingly for the Conservatives, come to the fore.

I expect French national politics to become quite vivid shortly as new moves are made to scale down forever the farm subsidy levels at European level- this is the French 'red line' no matter whether their Prime Minister is socialist or capitalist. As German hands may be detected behind the attempts to rid Brussels of the farm subsidy bill and in line with US and even Chinese pressure at global level I think the Berlin/Paris axis will come under severe pressure from the French side.

Then we have Greece, Portugal, Italy and Ireland and even Spain as the financial jokers in the European pack.

The stresses and strains of an as yet unrealised Federal Europe provide a major challenge for those who wish to promote the notion of that corporate continent. I'm not sure that a willingness at boardroom and Brussels level will be enough to launch that particular unfinished vessel of staterooms without an engine.

Politically we are looking at a kind of tornado slowly forming. Like the rotating storms sucking up extra speed from the shallow Gulf of Mexico I wonder whether the dynamics I mention can be managed away from combining into a European Katrina, an impossible mix of forces beyond the capabilities of levee governments around Europe to control.

As ever (to quote I think Mr Anthony Eden) it is 'events, dear boy, events,' that make the historical mark and rarely the wishes and plans of bureaucrats.

We shall see.

[Richardbouvet]

My brother who lives in Barcelona believes that many of the marchers were there for anti-austerity reasons, not nationalist ones, and that some of the marchers were not actually Catalan at all.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

That is interesting Richard- but I wonder whether this reinforces the point that the cruelties of austerity policies combine to produce a reaction against centralised authority which touts that austerity around?

Most famously, or infamously, the spectre of national socialism we know coat-tailed on exactly that dynamic in Germany of the 30's.

I think that there may be attempts to hijack that groundswell on behalf of ultra-nationalist or fascist groups but in these days where the 99% dynamic showed a level of sophistication in not allowing such hijackings I hope that the dynamic of opposition as it coalesces will result in a restoration of a proper interest in a positive form of nationalism- a whole other debate but lately I've been thinking that democracy works best in defined silos or modules and can't help noticing that the bigger a landmass and population happens to be seems to be a decent indicator of whether democracy will prevail or a form of totalitarianism, overt or covert, is more likely.

[C. Flower]

Fitch has just put Catalonia on negative watch.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

The banking cartel cocks its revolver...