Clare Daly resigns from the Socialist Party

[Jolly Red Giant]

And you claim to stand in the political tradition of Lenin and Trotsky while spouting this crude objectivist worship of spontaneity?

I take it that you do understand the difference between organising a mass movement and then providing it with political leadership and direction.

[bolshevik]

I take it that you do understand the difference between organising a mass movement and then providing it with political leadership and direction.

The original quote I made was in reference to a comment made by you about the growth of the ULA in reply to C. Flower.

But perhaps this is just a slip and indicates that the SP never saw the ULA as any kind of party project but rather a mass movement you could provide political leadership to.

And in reference to real mass movements political leadership needs to be won not imposed through political tricks as the ULA (SP & SWP) seem to be trying to do with the CAHWT - http://revolutionaryprogramme.wordpr...ot-in-my-name/

[C. Flower]

The ULA is having a meeting. Not an anti-austerity meeting though.

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/201...on-rights-now/

[C. Flower]

From the SP website - an article that says ULA public representatives should have nothing to do with Wallace.

The ULA has no mechanism to expel anyone, so far as I'm aware.

Not having troubled to develop democratic structures in the ULA turns out to be a double-edged sword for its creators.

http://www.socialistparty.net/commen...on-to-wallace-

McLoughlin, the author, says that "the mood has changed" and therefore the CAWHT should use its authority to lead an anti-austerity campaign.

This cuts across the role of the ULA surely - which was designed to be an alliance that would be well placed to lead such a campaign ?

Given that the mood seems to be changing, we believe that this idea must be pushed. CAHWT has undermined the Government plans for new taxes. Nothing should be taken for granted and the pressure against the household, property and water taxes must continue.
But CAHWT should also try to ignite an active movement against the general policy of austerity and if members of the ULA fight to make that a reality, that will also demonstrate concretely to working class people the important political role that the ULA can play.

This whole cynical and opportunist morass is a lesson that neither the SP nor the SWP can be trusted to put the interest of the people/working class before their immediately perceived organisational self-interest.

[Baron von Biffo]

"Some say the Socialist Party contributed to the damaging of the ULA by not going along with the chorus in the media for Wallace’s resignation. But to support this demand would have been the easy, but the completely wrong thing to do.

If Wallace had been forced to resign in such circumstances the power of the media to dictate political policy would have been strengthened and would quickly have been used to damage the left itself."

So doing the right thing would have been wrong because it would have put them on the same side as the media.

Complete, howling at the moon, craziness.

http://www.socialistparty.net/commen...on-to-wallace-

[Jolly Red Giant]

This cuts across the role of the ULA surely - which was designed to be an alliance that would be well placed to lead such a campaign ?

The role and purpose of the ULA is to build a mass opposition to austerity - to build a mass party of working class people. If the process by which this can be achieved is through expanding the CAHWT into a generalised movement against austerity then the ULA should be fully behind such a development

So doing the right thing would have been wrong because it would have put them on the same side as the media.

Nothing to do with it Biffo - The right-wing media has no right or entitlement to dictate who should or should not be allowed to be a public representative. They have and will use their power and influence to attack the left - and part of their attack on Wallace is an attempt to undermine the left through (false) association.

The Socialist Party has been absolutely consistent in its approach to Wallace. It has demanded that he pay every penny he owes - that he be absolutely transparent in outlining his financial affairs to the people of Wexford and the electorate at large - that he not pull any political stunts (like paying 50% of the wages over and then claiming the allowance) etc. The Socialist Party has argued that the people of Wexford are entitled to decide who are their representatives - not the media. However, if Wallace continues to obstruct those looking for transparency etc then the Socialist Party may decide that it is appropriate to call for his resignation. Personally I think his role in undermining the CAHWT by refusing to step back from a public role in the campaign warrants a review of the situation - but that is just my personal opinion.

[bolshevik]

The Socialist Party has been absolutely consistent in its approach to Wallace. It has demanded that he pay every penny he owes - that he be absolutely transparent in outlining his financial affairs to the people of Wexford and the electorate at large - that he not pull any political stunts (like paying 50% of the wages over and then claiming the allowance) etc. The Socialist Party has argued that the people of Wexford are entitled to decide who are their representatives - not the media. However, if Wallace continues to obstruct those looking for transparency etc then the Socialist Party may decide that it is appropriate to call for his resignation. Personally I think his role in undermining the CAHWT by refusing to step back from a public role in the campaign warrants a review of the situation - but that is just my personal opinion.

Just wondering if there is any update on the SP's formal position over the past couple of weeks since JRG wrote the above comment?

[C. Flower]

McLoughlin wrote

At the end of August, the Socialist Party raised that United Left Alliance (ULA) activists should propose in the Campaign Against Household and Water Taxes (CAHWT) that it use its authority to take the lead in organising a mass anti-austerity demonstration in advance of December’s Budget.

Given that the mood seems to be changing, we believe that this idea must be pushed. CAHWT has undermined the Government plans for new taxes. Nothing should be taken for granted and the pressure against the household, property and water taxes must continue.
But CAHWT should also try to ignite an active movement against the general policy of austerity and if members of the ULA fight to make that a reality, that will also demonstrate concretely to working class people the important political role that the ULA can play.

Originally Posted by C. Flower
This cuts across the role of the ULA surely - which was designed to be an alliance that would be well placed to lead such a campaign ?

The role and purpose of the ULA is to build a mass opposition to austerity - to build a mass party of working class people. If the process by which this can be achieved is through expanding the CAHWT into a generalised movement against austerity then the ULA should be fully behind such a development

This is not right. The campaign against Household Taxes was founded as a single issue anti-tax campaign. There is no doubt that to some extent this campaign is fired by opposition to the tax on grounds of inability of many to pay, the lack of differentiation between large and smaller houses and by general dislike of the Government, but it is also supported by individuals who are anti-tax and politically conservative / right wing and who are opposed to asset and property taxes generally. The campaign by and large excludes young people and tenants, who are potentially the most likely to get stuck in to an ant-austerity movement.

The ULA, on the other hand, is an alliance of established left groups and left wing individuals who have come together on a programme that is clearly opposed to the IMF/Troika programme, the FG/Lab Government and to neoliberal "austerity" in general.

For the SP to favour the CAWHT as a means of building a mass movement, "parking" and winding down the ULA, is a clear shift to the right, politically.

The Socialist Party has argued that the people of Wexford are entitled to decide who are their representatives - not the media.

They did not. Wallace could have been asked by the SP/ULA to step down and put himself to a vote in a by-election. The SP was opposed to doing that.

[Jolly Red Giant]

This is not right. The campaign against Household Taxes was founded as a single issue anti-tax campaign. There is no doubt that to some extent this campaign is fired by opposition to the tax on grounds of inability of many to pay, the lack of differentiation between large and smaller houses and by general dislike of the Government, but it is also supported by individuals who are anti-tax and politically conservative / right wing and who are opposed to asset and property taxes generally. The campaign by and large excludes young people and tenants, who are potentially the most likely to get stuck in to an ant-austerity movement.

The ULA, on the other hand, is an alliance of established left groups and left wing individuals who have come together on a programme that is clearly opposed to the IMF/Troika programme, the FG/Lab Government and to neoliberal "austerity" in general.

For the SP to favour the CAWHT as a means of building a mass movement, "parking" and winding down the ULA, is a clear shift to the right, politically.



They did not. Wallace could have been asked by the SP/ULA to step down and put himself to a vote in a by-election. The SP was opposed to doing that.

I was going to sit down and write a reply and then I said to myself - whats the f*cking point - CF has had a bug up the rear end about the CAHWT since day one - let the whinging go - good night.

[fluffybiscuits]

McLoughlin wrote







This is not right. The campaign against Household Taxes was founded as a single issue anti-tax campaign. There is no doubt that to some extent this campaign is fired by opposition to the tax on grounds of inability of many to pay, the lack of differentiation between large and smaller houses and by general dislike of the Government, but it is also supported by individuals who are anti-tax and politically conservative / right wing and who are opposed to asset and property taxes generally. The campaign by and large excludes young people and tenants, who are potentially the most likely to get stuck in to an ant-austerity movement.

The ULA, on the other hand, is an alliance of established left groups and left wing individuals who have come together on a programme that is clearly opposed to the IMF/Troika programme, the FG/Lab Government and to neoliberal "austerity" in general.

For the SP to favour the CAWHT as a means of building a mass movement, "parking" and winding down the ULA, is a clear shift to the right, politically.



They did not. Wallace could have been asked by the SP/ULA to step down and put himself to a vote in a by-election. The SP was opposed to doing that.

The one thing that the parties should have looked at is that the taxes are only part of the picture. The issues on household taxes are only going to affect a certain section of the website but the IMF programme is going to effect everyone in the country and not just on a small scale but on a grand scale, across all sections of society . Paycuts, job losses , the whole shebang. JRG with all due respect , being comrades as we are , we need to look at the over all situation .

[Jolly Red Giant]

Paycuts, job losses , the whole shebang. JRG with all due respect , being comrades as we are , we need to look at the over all situation .

Quote once - just once - where I claimed that anything could be resolved on the basis of capitalism - indeed the Socialist Party are the only group (large one anyway) who repreatedly emphasise that there is no solution to the crisis udner capitalism - in contrast to the SWP, Joan Collins, Clare Daly, Seamus Healy and their various groups.

[fluffybiscuits]

Quote once - just once - where I claimed that anything could be resolved on the basis of capitalism - indeed the Socialist Party are the only group (large one anyway) who repreatedly emphasise that there is no solution to the crisis udner capitalism - in contrast to the SWP, Joan Collins, Clare Daly, Seamus Healy and their various groups.

I never said you did ! I am just saying maybe we are not looking at the bigger picture! (Im on your side dont worry!!)

[C. Flower]

How very Trotsky.

It was Trotsky who was excised. Sad to see his supposed followers out and about with the scissors and paste these days.

The SWP is now advertising a major 3 day event on Marxist politics that doesn't mention the ULA - not even a "lessons of the ULA experience" session.

[C. Flower]

The one thing that the parties should have looked at is that the taxes are only part of the picture. The issues on household taxes are only going to affect a certain section of the website but the IMF programme is going to effect everyone in the country and not just on a small scale but on a grand scale, across all sections of society . Paycuts, job losses , the whole shebang. JRG with all due respect , being comrades as we are , we need to look at the over all situation .

+ 10

Students, private rental tenants, young people, council housing tenants, - are not affected by the household charge.

People are being hit by cuts, price increases and loss of earnings.
The 9% increase in ESB on its own will be as much as the household charge for some families.

[Saoirse go Deo]

+ 10

Students, private rental tenants, young people, council housing tenants, - are not affected by the household charge.

People are being hit by cuts, price increases and loss of earnings.
The 9% increase in ESB on its own will be as much as the household charge for some families.

I have to disagree Cass, I'm a student and am affected by the HC, (or would have been anyway if myself or my family had have paid it) and students will be affected by property taxes - I reckon they will be passed on to student tenants. Students en masse are already ripped off and abused by landlords. With student accommodation they know that their tenants will only be there for nine months or so and are not likely to create too much of a fuss.