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Thread: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

  1. #301
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    Angry Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    Quote Originally Posted by BOZG View Post
    Change is a contradictory process of different stages - sometimes, it's a step forward, sometimes a step back. Sometimes it becomes a giant leap forward where everything seems to be turned upside down in a short period of time. Small forces, organisations and ideas that formerly seemed unrealistic can take on a life of their own and become real contenders.

    But the conditions don't exist for such leaps yet. This a period of steps, forward and back, where workers are re-learning old traditions, sizing up who their real friends are etc. Things may be quiet now but that can change very quickly. And contrary to popular belief, Ireland does have a tradition of revolutionary and mass struggle. In 1911, the ITGWU had 3,000 members. By 1913, it had 300,000 members was engaged in one of the most important class battles in Irish history, the 1913 Lockout. In 1919, Soviets were declared in Ireland, the most important being the Limerick Soviet. Jolly Red Giant could actually give you a good lesson on the Limerick Soviet and on revolution in Ireland that blasts the idea of "conservative, lazy, passive " Ireland to shreds.


    I'd be interested to know on what basis you claim that the working class earns only as high as €30,000 per year, particularly considering that the Average Industrial Wage in Ireland in 2009 was €32,000 (and was previously higher), though that has declined since then. Class is not based on figures, it's based on your relationship to production. There are whole sectors of the working class that did quite well during the boom years and saw their wages rise. Public sector workers have been able to secure relatively decent standards because of the boom on one hand but because they have been organised and willing to fight for those conditions.

    Nonetheless, 20% of the public sector earn less than €30,000 despite your apparent attempts to insinuate that public sector staff aren't members of the working class. 31% earn less than €35,000, 43% less than €40,000, 66% less than €50,000, where "managerial" grades start to appear.

    But even if you use your €30,000 figure, the real working class who are apparently allowed to strike, that's mainly frontline personnel, so they'd have the same impact on services that you're complaining about. So are they real workers still or once they annoy you, are they no longer working class?

    As for the end of your post, you completely ignored what I said in my previous posts. No one is expected to be on the picket line 24 hours a day. Never have been unless there is a serious possibility of scabs breaking pickets and it necessitates full attendance. Once you do your shift on the picket, you have fulfilled your duty to the union, to your colleagues and to your strike. What you do after that is your own business. You have abandoned nothing or no one.

    As for your claim that I see public sector workers as private workers and more vulnerable, you're entitled to your beliefs but I'm not interested in pitting public sector against private sector, so beloved by politicians and the bosses.

    It's true that public sector workers have marginally better working conditions and job security than private sector workers but that is all under attack. But the reason they have been able to make those gains is because they've organised and they've fought. It wasn't handed to them as a privileged layer.

    But what exactly do you think will happen if the most organised section of the working class is broken? What do you think employers will do if they think, "Hang on, they've smashed the public sector unions were unionisation is the in the high 80s or early 90s, what's stopping me battering the private sector which is nowhere near well organised?" And your whole argument boils down to the idea of equalising low wages and terrible conditions by public sector workers having to face the same conditions as the private sector, because they're more vulnerable. In fact, you're actually parroting the same arguments as the bosses, the politicians and in many cases, the trade union leadership. But the question should be, "Why are private sector workers in a more vulnerable position?".
    You misread my quote, I said, private workers and the more vulnerable in society-that does not mean private workers are the most vulnerable. The more vulnerable being carers who get no financial support for looking after their families, the unemployed that no one cares about, the elderly and ill who depend on the monstrosity that is the Health Service Executive. And be very careful on what you said sir-How many average run of the mill working class people do you actually believe are paid over 30k? Indeed no one I am related to, nor aware of does. The average wage is well below what the CAO says-I have spoken to many people around and from Dublin, Meath, Louth and Kildare about this-and they told me similar stories of their families-some as far away as donegal and cork. So don't tell me a bunch of suits know what an average wage is. Indeed I highly doubt anyone on the wage bill of the cao or in government can tell you that without being two faced. How many people do you know earning over thirty k a year? You must be more connected than I-and I am beholden to no stereotypes or spin machines thank you very much. And marginally me arse-no public servant is usually let go unless some drastic externality occurs. By the way sir, I don't suppose you would support raising the minimum wage to ten euros an hour so that one could actually live on it if one was lucky enough to find a job in this country? Let me guess, YOU would take the bosses view there?

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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    You misread my quote, I said, private workers and the more vulnerable in society-that does not mean private workers are the most vulnerable. The more vulnerable being carers who get no financial support for looking after their families, the unemployed that no one cares about, the elderly and ill who depend on the monstrosity that is the Health Service Executive. And be very careful on what you said sir-How many average run of the mill working class people do you actually believe are paid over 30k? Indeed no one I am related to, nor aware of does. The average wage is well below what the CAO says-I have spoken to many people around and from Dublin, Meath, Louth and Kildare about this-and they told me similar stories of their families-some as far away as donegal and cork. So don't tell me a bunch of suits know what an average wage is. Indeed I highly doubt anyone on the wage bill of the cao or in government can tell you that without being two faced. How many people do you know earning over thirty k a year? You must be more connected than I-and I am beholden to no stereotypes or spin machines thank you very much. And marginally me arse-no public servant is usually let go unless some drastic externality occurs. By the way sir, I don't suppose you would support raising the minimum wage to ten euros an hour so that one could actually live on it if one was lucky enough to find a job in this country? Let me guess, YOU would take the bosses view there?
    Tempers please folks (that goes for everyone APJP, I'm not trying to single you out). Our programme calls for a guaranteed minimum wage of €12 an hour. And the average wage is distorted: 44% of workers earn too little to be taken within the tax bands. However that is no call to go cutting the average wage of public sector workers as that would then provide justification for a renewed assault on private sector workers and would further undermine conditions in unionised workplaces. Thats why all cuts should be opposed as they will just open the way for a general assault on wages everywhere.
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    'Our goal is to conquer state power for the Irish working class'
    Pat Rabitte, 1987

    "Can I ask whether this is what the men of 1916 died for: a bailout from the German chancellor with a few shillings of sympathy from the British chancellor on the side?"
    Michael Noonan, November 2010

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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    You misread my quote, I said, private workers and the more vulnerable in society-that does not mean private workers are the most vulnerable. The more vulnerable being carers who get no financial support for looking after their families, the unemployed that no one cares about, the elderly and ill who depend on the monstrosity that is the Health Service Executive. And be very careful on what you said sir-How many average run of the mill working class people do you actually believe are paid over 30k? Indeed no one I am related to, nor aware of does. The average wage is well below what the CAO says-I have spoken to many people around and from Dublin, Meath, Louth and Kildare about this-and they told me similar stories of their families-some as far away as donegal and cork. So don't tell me a bunch of suits know what an average wage is. Indeed I highly doubt anyone on the wage bill of the cao or in government can tell you that without being two faced. How many people do you know earning over thirty k a year? You must be more connected than I-and I am beholden to no stereotypes or spin machines thank you very much. And marginally me arse-no public servant is usually let go unless some drastic externality occurs. By the way sir, I don't suppose you would support raising the minimum wage to ten euros an hour so that one could actually live on it if one was lucky enough to find a job in this country? Let me guess, YOU would take the bosses view there?
    My apologies, I did misread your quote. But the general point still stands. If the government and the employers are able to break the back of the most unionised section of the working class, they will go to war on private sector workers. And you're still arguing for a downward equalisation of wages rather than arguing that low paid workers should fight to have their wages brought up.

    I know plenty of workers who earn more than €30,000. It isn't strange for a working class person to earn more than that. It's "only" €14.40 an hour. Not an astronomically high wage at all. Using your logic, not a single qualified construction worker in this state is working class. Even labourers and 4th year apprentices are not members of the working class according to you.

    I worked for a transport company a number of years ago. All truck drivers earned in excess of €30,000. Amongst any of the larger truck companies, that was the standard wage.

    Yes, it's true that in the unskilled sectors of the economy, wages are generally less but even there, it's not all that exception to find workers earning more than €30,000.

    And once again, wage levels do not decide on whether someone is working class or not. Their relationship to production does. That doesn't mean that there isn't a middle class consciousness amongst layers of workers.

    And I never mentioned the average wage in Ireland, I mentioned the Average Industrial Wage in Ireland which is much more specific, focusing on those in industry. It certainly is inflated as all averages are because they don't differentiate between those on €200,000 and those on €20,000 but it's a much more limited average which means the manipulations are much narrower.

    And as antiestablishmentarian, we are in favour a minimum wage of €12 per hour. I find it quite funny that you're claiming that I'm on the bosses' side when you're the one that's calling for wage cuts.

  4. #304
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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    Quote Originally Posted by antiestablishmentarian View Post
    However that is no call to go cutting the average wage of public sector workers as that would then provide justification for a renewed assault on private sector workers and would further undermine conditions in unionised workplaces. Thats why all cuts should be opposed as they will just open the way for a general assault on wages everywhere.
    This is a vitally important point. The bosses and the government work in tandem to drive down wages during periods of recession. The current situation has remarkable similarities with Ireland in the period immediately folowing independence. In 1924 the government - at the behest of the employers - cut wages for teachers, civil servants and gardai and followed it up with a cut in the old age pension. Employers then used these cuts as the example for driving down wages in the private sector.

    But it wasn't enough - in 1926 the government signed a contract with Seimens to build the Ardnacrusha power station. However, again at the behest of the employers, they instructed Seimens not to pay more than 35s a week for workers to be employed, instead of the normal rate of 52s a week. A nine month long strike broke out involving hundreds of workers in Limerick. Dock workers struck in solidarity, blacking all shipments destined for the construction site. Shops and suppliers that supplied Seimens were boycotted by the working class in the city. Full scale pitched battles occurred on the picket lines between the strikers and the police (and the scabs). Within weeks Seimens agreed to pay the full rate of wages and accepted that they would carry the cost with no extra expenditure expected from the government. The government, cheered on by the employers on the sidelines, however, rejected Seimens efforts to end the strike and threatened the company if they did not stick to initally instructed wage limit. The Church hierarchy weighed in attacking the strikers for being unpatriotic and the goernment, employers and the church attacked the strike as being communist inspired.

    The strike was eventually defeated as a result of the ILP&TUC's refusal to allow solidarity action from workers in other parts of the country. For nine months the ILP&TUC leadership promised solidarity action and the countrywide boycott of any company that supplied Seimens. Yet, just as with the Limerick Soviet in 1919 - they did nothing. As the strike petered out workers were forced through starvation to drift back to work. Workers from all over the country were forced to travel to Limerick to work on the construction of the power station. At the height of the construction over 5,500 workers were working on the site. Any worker who refused was threatened with the removal of all welfare assistance from him and his family. Dozens of workers were killed on the site and dozens more maimed for life as safety procedures were tossed out the window at the behest of the government, in order to get the project finished on time. Despite being promised on-site accomodation and food - hundreds of families ended up living in barns and pigsties paying exhorbitant rent to local farmers (there was one case of 13 families living in a single haybarn belonging to a farmer in Blackwater and each paying £1 a week rent - more than half the weekly wage on the site). The on-site food only supplied a fraction of the workforce and food prices for the workers sky-rocketed. Most workers claimed they were worse off than staying at home with no income or assistance from the state and many ended up borrowing money from loan sharks to feed their families.

    In the aftermath of the strike the employers went on a full-scale assault on wage levels and working conditions - telling workers if they refused to accept poorer wages and conditions they could simply go and work at Ardnacrusha. The defeat of the strike all-but broke the trade union movement and led to a significant shift to the right among the bureaucrats (a move which even saw some of them support Franco in the Spanish Civil War). The trade union movement only began to recover following a successful four week nationwide strike of IOC workers near the end of 1930.

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    Thumbs up Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apjp View Post
    I realize things don't happen overnight. I was under the impression that was perhaps your belief? I am a parliamentarian. I believe that all change can only come from the houses of power
    Apjp - if history has taught us anything it's that parliament can only achieve very limited reforms before coming up against the barrier of the class nature of society. If you manage to achieve a parliamentary majority and happen to be pushed towards radical reform by the masses, you'll find out soon enough just how much respect the ruling class has for democracy.
    See Salvador Allende, Chile 1973: http://socialistworld.net/doc/887

    Instead of putting faith in the "houses of power" I would rather hold that the "power house" of the working class, with a revolutionary leadership is the only force that can change the world.

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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    I took the liberty of setting up this (http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=3693) sticky thread where comrades and others who wish to discuss points about consciousness, historical points or economic questions can do so and this thread can be put back on track and a greater discussion about collaboration on the left can be had.
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    'Our goal is to conquer state power for the Irish working class'
    Pat Rabitte, 1987

    "Can I ask whether this is what the men of 1916 died for: a bailout from the German chancellor with a few shillings of sympathy from the British chancellor on the side?"
    Michael Noonan, November 2010

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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    I'm just posting a blog post here from Dublin Dilettante, who is a member of Politicalworld.org.

    He's/she's asking why the Left doesn't seem able to make a provide a quick reaction to things like the "workfare" scheme - except for Labour, who supported it.

    There's a discussion on how we could change that situation. If there's interest in discussing it here, it could become a separate thread.

    http://circumlimina.wordpress.com/

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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    I came across this very broad and thorough overview of European politics and prospects for the left written by Alan Armstrong, a Scottish Socialist. It covers the Irish parties and is well worth reading although written a year ago.

    http://republicancommunist.org/blog/tag/declan-ganley/

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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    I'm just posting a blog post here from Dublin Dilettante, who is a member of Politicalworld.org.

    He's/she's asking why the Left doesn't seem able to make a provide a quick reaction to things like the "workfare" scheme - except for Labour, who supported it.

    There's a discussion on how we could change that situation. If there's interest in discussing it here, it could become a separate thread.

    http://circumlimina.wordpress.com/
    We're working with others on the left to try and stop the gap that exists.
    Нооруз пиээ пурылыа выиттыа


    'Our goal is to conquer state power for the Irish working class'
    Pat Rabitte, 1987

    "Can I ask whether this is what the men of 1916 died for: a bailout from the German chancellor with a few shillings of sympathy from the British chancellor on the side?"
    Michael Noonan, November 2010

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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    CF, I enjoyed reading that blog you recommended earlier in this thread. Was there any further interest in Radio Alternative?

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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    I came across this very broad and thorough overview of European politics and prospects for the left written by Alan Armstrong, a Scottish Socialist. It covers the Irish parties and is well worth reading although written a year ago.

    http://republicancommunist.org/blog/tag/declan-ganley/
    I read it and in my opinion it is poor in analysis terms and wrong in political terms. It attempts to present itself as a balanced and objective analysis when, in reality, it is written from a left nationalist position and is nothing more than a vehicle for the author to take a swipe at everyone he doesn't agree with.

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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant View Post
    I read it and in my opinion it is poor in analysis terms and wrong in political terms. It attempts to present itself as a balanced and objective analysis when, in reality, it is written from a left nationalist position and is nothing more than a vehicle for the author to take a swipe at everyone he doesn't agree with.
    I will go into shock if I ever read a political analysis which isn't tendentious.
    The writer took on the job of writing a political overview of European party politics. While appreciate it would take time that you might not have, I would be interested to read your reply to what he says.

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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    I will go into shock if I ever read a political analysis which isn't tendentious.
    The writer took on the job of writing a political overview of European party politics. While appreciate it would take time that you might not have, I would be interested to read your reply to what he says.
    I am not going to go into a detailed response to the blog - I will however, point out some of the blatant inaccuracies/sectarian swipes in the piece.

    1. the usually unacknowledged political significance of the partition of Ireland, which both the SP and the SWP downplay.
    I am not going to speak for the SWP - but the Socialist Party/CWI do not and have never downplayed the significance of partition on this island.

    2. Thus, for example, despite the electoral successes in ‘The 26 Counties’, Socialists vacated the electoral terrain altogether in ‘The Six Counties’.
    The only elections that took place in the North were the EU elections - given the fact that an election in a single constituency was going to be nothing more than a sectarian headcount, it would have been a complete waste of time, energy and resources for a socialist candidate to have stood. Armstrong throws out a bald statement without any attempt to put it into context.

    3. They may find some difficulty being heard in the face of the likely triumphalist clamour coming from the SP and SWP after their recent electoral successes.
    Possibly the only statement that I have read or heard that claimed that the Socialist Party was 'triumphalist' following the elections in 2009. It's utter hogwash and nothing more than an uninspired sectarian swipe against the Socialist Party,

    4. Very soon, the Irish ruling class is likely to want to organise a rerun of the Lisbon Treaty referendum. Given that Eurosceptic Libertas leader, Declan Ganley, seems to have thrown in the towel, after failing to win a Euro-seat in North West Ireland, the responsibility for opposing this neo-liberal treaty falls much more squarely upon Socialists. The reactions of Sinn Fein (previously opposed to the Treaty) and Labour (previously supportive) will be interesting. This could provide Socialists with real opportunities to make their mark on Irish national politics.
    Talk about stating the bloody obvious

    5. However, this will mean striving for real Socialist unity, if the whole of Ireland, not just Dublin, is to be covered properly. The ability of the WUAG to organise effectively in small town Ireland (in County Tipperary) shows the possibilities.
    Actually demonstrates how little Armstrong knows about the activities of left groups in Ireland - and also demonstrates his lack of knowledge about the WUAG.

    6. The Socialist Party (SP) in England and Wales, and its International Socialist (IS) outrider inside Solidarity in Scotland, offer another road to Left unity, which also needs to be questioned. They do want to build a political alternative to New Labour, but by further developing the bureaucratic, Left British nationalist, European electoral front, No2EU.
    Yet another sectarian swipe against the SP/CWI.

    7. There may be critical analyses going on amongst members inside the bureaucratically centralised SWP and SP ... These parties’ internal regimes do not encourage much independent thinking.
    Another swipe - done specifically because the SP did not run headlong into the 'Convention of the Left'.

    8. The British and Irish ruling class strategy can not be opposed successfully by means of the organisational model – one state/one party – supported by the parties of the British Left (and their Irish satellites) – the SP, SWP, CPB, CPGB and AWL, etc.. Although in Britain this usually means forgetting that the UK state does not consist solely of Britain, but also includes ‘The Six Counties’ of Ireland.
    Another swipe - particularly the comment about 'Irish satellites'

    9. Both the CWI affiliated SP, and the SWP, formally exist as a single party in Ireland but, in practice, follow partitionist politics, especially in their accommodation to continued British rule in ‘The Six Counties’.
    So from attacking the CWI for having a 'one state/one party' approach - he now has to admit that this is not in fact the case - only to then claim that it is irrelevent because both the Socialist Party and the SWP 'accomodate' Brit Imperialism.

    10. This organisational problem is merely an aspect of a wider political problem. This can be seen by the British and Irish SPs’ inability to offer a coordinated strategy to confront both the shared British and Irish ruling class political strategy for these islands. These two SPs have a record of adapting to local circumstances in a way that produces glaring contradictions.
    Because the Socialist Party doesn't support republicanism and and does not go and scream it's support for republicanism from the tree tops.

    11. Thus in Britain, they support an ‘independent socialist Scotland’, but merely a Welsh Assembly with more powers.

    From Socialist Party Scotland programme -
    For a socialist Scotland and a free and voluntary socialist federation of Scotland with England, Wales and Ireland.

    From the Socialist Party Wales programme -
    For a socialist Wales as part of a socialist federation of Wales, England, Scotland and Ireland.

    The SP in Wales includes a seperate sentence about extra powers fot the Welsh Assembly thereby having the authority to nationalise firms threatening redundancy.

    etc. etc. etc.
    Like I said - nothing more than an ill-informed, poorly written sectarian slugfest.

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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    I see I need to reply to the last post.

    In the meantime, I came across this series of youtubes of the "Peadar O'Donnell Summer School" and this discussion on "the Future of the Irish Left" - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCkE0EwYN_A"]YouTube - Colm Bryce - Future of the Left in Ireland[/ame]

    which I'm throwing into this mix. (double click on the youtube to get other participants)

    Colm Bryce talking about the People Before Profit Alliance.

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    Default Re: Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant View Post
    I am not going to go into a detailed response to the blog - I will however, point out some of the blatant inaccuracies/sectarian swipes in the piece.

    1. the usually unacknowledged political significance of the partition of Ireland, which both the SP and the SWP downplay.
    I am not going to speak for the SWP - but the Socialist Party/CWI do not and have never downplayed the significance of partition on this island.

    2. Thus, for example, despite the electoral successes in ‘The 26 Counties’, Socialists vacated the electoral terrain altogether in ‘The Six Counties’.
    The only elections that took place in the North were the EU elections - given the fact that an election in a single constituency was going to be nothing more than a sectarian headcount, it would have been a complete waste of time, energy and resources for a socialist candidate to have stood. Armstrong throws out a bald statement without any attempt to put it into context.

    3. They may find some difficulty being heard in the face of the likely triumphalist clamour coming from the SP and SWP after their recent electoral successes.
    Possibly the only statement that I have read or heard that claimed that the Socialist Party was 'triumphalist' following the elections in 2009. It's utter hogwash and nothing more than an uninspired sectarian swipe against the Socialist Party,

    4. Very soon, the Irish ruling class is likely to want to organise a rerun of the Lisbon Treaty referendum. Given that Eurosceptic Libertas leader, Declan Ganley, seems to have thrown in the towel, after failing to win a Euro-seat in North West Ireland, the responsibility for opposing this neo-liberal treaty falls much more squarely upon Socialists. The reactions of Sinn Fein (previously opposed to the Treaty) and Labour (previously supportive) will be interesting. This could provide Socialists with real opportunities to make their mark on Irish national politics.
    Talk about stating the bloody obvious

    5. However, this will mean striving for real Socialist unity, if the whole of Ireland, not just Dublin, is to be covered properly. The ability of the WUAG to organise effectively in small town Ireland (in County Tipperary) shows the possibilities.
    Actually demonstrates how little Armstrong knows about the activities of left groups in Ireland - and also demonstrates his lack of knowledge about the WUAG.

    6. The Socialist Party (SP) in England and Wales, and its International Socialist (IS) outrider inside Solidarity in Scotland, offer another road to Left unity, which also needs to be questioned. They do want to build a political alternative to New Labour, but by further developing the bureaucratic, Left British nationalist, European electoral front, No2EU.
    Yet another sectarian swipe against the SP/CWI.

    7. There may be critical analyses going on amongst members inside the bureaucratically centralised SWP and SP ... These parties’ internal regimes do not encourage much independent thinking.
    Another swipe - done specifically because the SP did not run headlong into the 'Convention of the Left'.

    8. The British and Irish ruling class strategy can not be opposed successfully by means of the organisational model – one state/one party – supported by the parties of the British Left (and their Irish satellites) – the SP, SWP, CPB, CPGB and AWL, etc.. Although in Britain this usually means forgetting that the UK state does not consist solely of Britain, but also includes ‘The Six Counties’ of Ireland.
    Another swipe - particularly the comment about 'Irish satellites'

    9. Both the CWI affiliated SP, and the SWP, formally exist as a single party in Ireland but, in practice, follow partitionist politics, especially in their accommodation to continued British rule in ‘The Six Counties’.
    So from attacking the CWI for having a 'one state/one party' approach - he now has to admit that this is not in fact the case - only to then claim that it is irrelevent because both the Socialist Party and the SWP 'accomodate' Brit Imperialism.

    10. This organisational problem is merely an aspect of a wider political problem. This can be seen by the British and Irish SPs’ inability to offer a coordinated strategy to confront both the shared British and Irish ruling class political strategy for these islands. These two SPs have a record of adapting to local circumstances in a way that produces glaring contradictions.
    Because the Socialist Party doesn't support republicanism and and does not go and scream it's support for republicanism from the tree tops.

    11. Thus in Britain, they support an ‘independent socialist Scotland’, but merely a Welsh Assembly with more powers.

    From Socialist Party Scotland programme -
    For a socialist Scotland and a free and voluntary socialist federation of Scotland with England, Wales and Ireland.

    From the Socialist Party Wales programme -
    For a socialist Wales as part of a socialist federation of Wales, England, Scotland and Ireland.

    The SP in Wales includes a seperate sentence about extra powers fot the Welsh Assembly thereby having the authority to nationalise firms threatening redundancy.

    etc. etc. etc.
    Like I said - nothing more than an ill-informed, poorly written sectarian slugfest.
    A good deal of digging back and fore - but what would you say are the essential political differences between yourself and Armstrong.
    I'm not familiar with his politics, but as you know from previous discussions, I've also disagreements with the Socialist Party's approach to Ireland and Britain.

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