Is Joe Higgins trying to start a link up on the left?

[red revolution]

[quote=C Flower;31718][quote]
[QUOTE]

The working class is an international class and doesn't need to be welded together in some kind of an artifical jigsaw puzzle strangely coincident with the outlines of the thankfully defunct British Empire. Socialist countries would energetically forge all kinds of alliances and relations that we can't anticipate in advance.

I can't envisage circumstances in which there would be social revolution in Ireland without the existing relations between the British and Irish States being terminated with massive changes in relations. A socialist Ireland shouldn't give anyone reason to leave on grounds of their religion or race. Why would you think that would be the case?

Funnily enough I agree with most of what you've said above. I'm not talking about 'artificially welding' countries together who don't want to be welded together. It's not like you make a proposal for what you think should happen in the future and then impose it on people who don't want it - everything would be decided democratically, so if people didn't want it, it wouldn't happen. It's just a proposal that the SP think is a good idea for reasons I've already outlined.

You clearly don't think it's a good idea but the only reason you've given is hostility to British imperialism, which as I've explained above is not relevant as imperialism by definition would not exist in a democratic socialist federation. Like you say, I can't 'envisage circumstances in which there would be social revolution in Ireland without the existing relations between the British and Irish States being terminated with massive changes in relations' either - and it is precisely this that I think would make a socialist federation a real possibility.

Unfortunately I doubt it'll be coming to a referendum any time soon but I live in hope and if it does we can both make our case!

On the Falklands issue which we've flogged to death a bit at this stage but I've enjoyed the debate - I didn't mean you said it was a fight between democracy and dictatorship, but that you said I said that - which I didn't.

Obviously I don't support Thatcher but I do support the people on the Falklands' right to decide whichever country they want to be part of, same as I do for any people anywhere, and I don't think Argentina has any particular 'right' to the place cause they aren't any Argentinians living there.

The point of the original article was to advocate a third strategy neither backing Thatcher nor siding with a right wing miltary dictatorship, but advocating allying with the working class in Argentina and trying to use the war to undermine both the Argentine and Thatcher regimes. The SP was not out waving flags at the troops.

Anyway thanks for the discussion and for setting up this site!

[Sam Lord]

Reading through this thread I don't really hold out much hope for anyone on the left of Irish politics coming up with any workable solutions anytime soon. The whole movement seems totally taken up with infighting over minor events in history that nobody else in the country cares about.

As usual there is no common purpose or goal on the left.

If you think this is bad you should have seen the carry on in Russia prior to the revolution.

Sometimes it is necessary to expose the wolves in sheeps clothing for the working class movement to make headway.

[RosaLuxembourg]

How's the sister party in Argentina doing by the way? I bet the workers there are flocking to it.

Their usual policy to when anything embaressing is brought to downplay it or outright lie. Which makes debating with them more than pointless.

[red revolution]

Two words ...


Malvinas Argentina's



Always sad, however, to see cheerleaders for British imperialism posing as socialists.

How's the sister party in Argentina doing by the way? I bet the workers there are flocking to it.

Ah jaysis don't call me a cheerleader for British imperialism - if that's what I am you're a fascist puppet, a junta poodle or a US stooge We lefties do a great line in antediluvian insults!

And thanks for asking about our Argentinian comrades
http://s223581270.websitehome.co.uk/...ional/cwi/8901

[Sam Lord]

Ah jaysis don't call me a cheerleader for British imperialism - if that's what I am you're a fascist puppet, a junta poodle or a US stooge We lefties do a great line in antediluvian insults!

And thanks for asking about our Argentinian comrades
http://s223581270.websitehome.co.uk/...ional/cwi/8901

You are confusing a factual remark with an insult ....

Best of luck to the Argentinian "comrades" ... I'm sure they both have a bright future.

[Sam Lord]

Obviously I don't support Thatcher but I do support the people on the Falklands' right to decide whichever country they want to be part of, same as I do for any people anywhere ...

So let me guess what your position on Hong Kong was .... the people there wanted to remain part of Britain so you opposed its return to China?

Actually it was probably this ... you supported a Socialist Federation of the workers of Hong Hong, Britain and China ... with no change in the status quo until that had been achieved.

and I don't think Argentina has any particular 'right' to the place cause they aren't any Argentinians living there.

Well there are no Irish on Rockall so I guess if the Brits parachute someone there tomorrow it's theirs ...

There is no shortage of uninhabited places the could claim.

[C. Flower]

Well there are no Irish on Rockall so I guess if the Brits parachute someone there tomorrow it's theirs ...

There is no shortage of uninhabited places the could claim.

Too late - they already did ....


http://www.politicalworld.org/showth...hlight=Rockall


Anyone who thinks they are keen to get out of Ireland should contemplate Rockall.

[red revolution]

You are confusing a factual remark with an insult ....

so for you the two are mutually exclusive - I take it you were paying me a compliment then? If so, do let me know when you're heading over to the mainland for the next British army parade and we can wave our union jack together.

[C. Flower]

[quote=red revolution;31758][quote=C Flower;31718][quote]

Funnily enough I agree with most of what you've said above. I'm not talking about 'artificially welding' countries together who don't want to be welded together. It's not like you make a proposal for what you think should happen in the future and then impose it on people who don't want it - everything would be decided democratically, so if people didn't want it, it wouldn't happen. It's just a proposal that the SP think is a good idea for reasons I've already outlined.

You clearly don't think it's a good idea but the only reason you've given is hostility to British imperialism, which as I've explained above is not relevant as imperialism by definition would not exist in a democratic socialist federation. Like you say, I can't 'envisage circumstances in which there would be social revolution in Ireland without the existing relations between the British and Irish States being terminated with massive changes in relations' either - and it is precisely this that I think would make a socialist federation a real possibility.

Unfortunately I doubt it'll be coming to a referendum any time soon but I live in hope and if it does we can both make our case!

On the Falklands issue which we've flogged to death a bit at this stage but I've enjoyed the debate - I didn't mean you said it was a fight between democracy and dictatorship, but that you said I said that - which I didn't.

Obviously I don't support Thatcher but I do support the people on the Falklands' right to decide whichever country they want to be part of, same as I do for any people anywhere, and I don't think Argentina has any particular 'right' to the place cause they aren't any Argentinians living there.

The point of the original article was to advocate a third strategy neither backing Thatcher nor siding with a right wing miltary dictatorship, but advocating allying with the working class in Argentina and trying to use the war to undermine both the Argentine and Thatcher regimes. The SP was not out waving flags at the troops.

Anyway thanks for the discussion and for setting up this site!

We'll call it a stand-off, for the time being

I'm very pleased that you and others from the SP have joined the site: I made it exactly to provide a place for political debate like this.

[Xray]

The term "left" is a pretty vague one.

I certainly dont have much common purpose with the Socialist Party and People Before Profit who's goal and purpose is basically as getting much power and presitige into the hands of their own organizations by any means necessary.

Its not vague unless you want to write a university paper on it. You are either for the small guy against the big one or you are not. Now if the left in Ireland is going to expend all its energy on a load of ***** about the falklands, splinters of the english labour party, communism in munich in the 1920s and the offical IRA in 1972 nobody is going to vote for them.

I am more worried about people getting home help and jobs now than some silly pub argument about some nonsense nobody with a life cares about.

We are living thru a massive confrontation between ordinary people and powerful vested interests. This effects the majority of the population, not just a fraction of 1% of the population that loves all the workers arise talk. Now people will skip very quickly over all of you when the look for solutions if all you can talk about is the falklands and stalin when they are talking about NAMA.

[Sam Lord]

Its not vague unless you want to write a university paper on it. You are either for the small guy against the big one or you are not. Now if the left in Ireland is going to expend all its energy on a load of ***** about the falklands, splinters of the english labour party, communism in munich in the 1920s and the offical IRA in 1972 nobody is going to vote for them.

I am more worried about people getting home help and jobs now than some silly pub argument about some nonsense nobody with a life cares about.

We are living thru a massive confrontation between ordinary people and powerful vested interests. This effects the majority of the population, not just a fraction of 1% of the population that loves all the workers arise talk. Now people will skip very quickly over all of you when the look for solutions if all you can talk about is the falklands and stalin when they are talking about NAMA.

I'm not sure what made you think the answer to the problems of the country lay in some internet forum. As far as I am concerned this is a social forum where I can wile away my time debating the Falklands, Trotsky, Munich, Genghis Khan, how great Shamrock Rovers are, or whatever other shyte comes to mind. I plan to have as many pub arguments as I fancy and I won't be asking your permission. On the other hand if I feel like organising the working class for revolution I will get up off my hole and away from his computer and get on with it ... I just could be arsed at the moment. But if you think that is what should be done you get up off your hole and do it and fair play to you. Just don't be whinging at me in the meantime about what I want to talk about. If it doesn't interest you don't read it ...

[Xray]

I'm not sure what made you think the answer to the problems of the country lay in some internet forum. As far as I am concerned this is a social forum where I can wile away my time debating the Falklands, Trotsky, Munich, Genghis Khan, how great Shamrock Rovers are, or whatever other shyte comes to mind. I plan to have as many pub arguments as I fancy and I won't be asking your permission. On the other hand if I feel like organising the working class for revolution I will get up off my hole and away from his computer and get on with it ... I just could be arsed at the moment. But if you think that is what should be done you get up off your hole and do it and fair play to you. Just don't be whinging at me in the meantime about what I want to talk about. If it doesn't interest you don't read it ...

I don't actually think that is what should be done. But a lot of people here seem to take their left wing politics very seriously. For the first time in a generation others in society are actually looking to them to see if they might be right and have an answer to the cul de sac we have been led into.

All I am saying is they wont wonder for long if this is what they encounter.

[Sam Lord]

I don't actually think that is what should be done.

You don't?

Here ... I recommend this

[BrendanGalway]

Kieran Allen of the SWP writes :

Brendan,

Apologies for delay in replying to your e mail of 10 may. I have been so bogged down with the protests at the Dail and other matters.

You ask about our attitude to left unity.

We are for working with any left wing party on specific campaigns and have gone out of our way to promote such unity.

We are part of the People Before Profit Alliance which brings together other socialists besides ourselves.

We favour a wider alliance that is to the left of the Labour Party and Sinn Fein and are presently involved in talks with other organisations to bring this about.

We urge Labour and Sinn Fein to break with any strategy of going into coalition with right wing parties and would favour a broader left alliance were they to take this route.

In the meantime, we always urge people to vote for other left candidates.

Should you wish to discuss this with me further please feel free to ring me on XXX XXXXX.

Kieran Allen

SWP


****

Looks like everyone is claiming they are working toward it but still we have not seen it. A speaker at last nights Demo outside the Dail also spoke on a need for Left unity. It would seem everyone is talking but so far there is still very much a sense of "Go it alone" amoung the Groups.

Interesting point on Labour and Sinn Fein, I wonder if these groups are in contact with each other. Martin Ferris has described but himself and his Party as Socialist. At their last Ard Fheis, they did seem to leave the door open to FF, a huge mistake IMO. As for Labour, Pat Rabbite calls them a Pro-enterprise Party, I cant see them sitting down with anyone to the Left of their Posistion at this stage. They were represented at last nights Demo however.

ps. There was a thread not too long ago asking if PBP and SWP were joined at the hip. Both Kieran and Richard Boyd Barrett, speaking on Vincent Browne, have confirmed this.

[Xray]

Kieran Allen of the SWP writes :

Brendan,

Apologies for delay in replying to your e mail of 10 may. I have been so bogged down with the protests at the Dail and other matters.

You ask about our attitude to left unity.

We are for working with any left wing party on specific campaigns and have gone out of our way to promote such unity.

We are part of the People Before Profit Alliance which brings together other socialists besides ourselves.

We favour a wider alliance that is to the left of the Labour Party and Sinn Fein and are presently involved in talks with other organisations to bring this about.

We urge Labour and Sinn Fein to break with any strategy of going into coalition with right wing parties and would favour a broader left alliance were they to take this route.

In the meantime, we always urge people to vote for other left candidates.

Should you wish to discuss this with me further please feel free to ring me on XXX XXXXX.

Kieran Allen

SWP


****

Looks like everyone is claiming they are working toward it but still we have not seen it. A speaker at last nights Demo outside the Dail also spoke on a need for Left unity. It would seem everyone is talking but so far there is still very much a sense of "Go it alone" amoung the Groups.

Interesting point on Labour and Sinn Fein, I wonder if these groups are in contact with each other. Martin Ferris has described but himself and his Party as Socialist. At their last Ard Fheis, they did seem to leave the door open to FF, a huge mistake IMO. As for Labour, Pat Rabbite calls them a Pro-enterprise Party, I cant see them sitting down with anyone to the Left of their Posistion at this stage. They were represented at last nights Demo however.

ps. There was a thread not too long ago asking if PBP and SWP were joined at the hip. Both Kieran and Richard Boyd Barrett, speaking on Vincent Browne, have confirmed this.

Well Done, interesting post and a straight answer for a politician. Although I am not very left wing myself I do think Irish politics needs to grow up and have a realistic choice of left and right wing politics. At the moment we have a choice between almost identical parties that really only differ on attitudes to corruption and pretend Nationalism. There is no point blaming the center or right of it for being strong, it is the lefts fault for not providing a viable unified alternative to vote for. The range of views in FG and FF on various issues is huge but they do not fall out over them. The same type of approach should be possible on the left where a general broad platform is presented to the public.

I think a lot of people think our problems will resolve when FF fall from power. I think the problems FF have are basically a symptom of problems society has rather than a case of them. If we don't address these deep seated problems with the structure of how with run this society then we will not improve things much in the future. Silly arguments between parties everyone else considers virtually identical do not help.