VAT debacle in Taxi Industry / + Target and the Haulage Crisis

[Baron von Biffo]

Dublin airport roads blocked by taxis acting the bollocks doing slow drives in circles.

[Baron von Biffo]

According to RTE News the Taxi drivers are threatening to block roads again tomorrow if they don't get their way.

At some point there's going to have to be a solution found to this tactic of holding the public to ransom. Taxi people have a right to close their businesses if they want but they have no right to obstruct everyone else.

[eamo]

Feeling like a smart-alec tonight so I am going for a PW first (I think) could I hope for a forum first? with a "same post two threads" sanity defying post.
Here goes.
ready....................

The phrase "its the exception that proves the rule" is well known and almost always taken to mean that if something occurs which seems to break a rule, well that proves there must be a rule to brake. The exception to a rule is, according to this interpretation the very verification that the rule exists.

An example would be if, say, Baron von Biffo, was to declare that Taxi operators have right on their side in a particular dispute, well going on past record and in accordance with this interpretation of "the exception proves the rule" we could say there exists a rule that Herr Biffo will take sides against Taxi operators "as a rule".

You still with me?

Right so.............

An alternative and I think a better interpretation of this rule is, that if an exceptional set of circumstances are put to the test of complying with a presumed rule, and the rule is found wanting. Then it is found that the formerly presumed "rule" never existed.

The exception in this case would, by complying with the rule, prove the rule.

If the rule did not hold for the exception, there never was such a rule.

Again let us look to the good Barron to illustrate the point.

Let us again take the presumed rule that Barron von Biffo will always side against Taxi drivers.

suppose a case were to arrise where right was overwhelmingly on the side of Taxi operators.

say for example an airport authority which charged taxi drivers 440 euro per year to pick up passengers at their airport was to start turning away the same people who they had charged. Telling them "No, we took your money but now we want you to go away, now, quickly and quietly"

and suppose for peace sake they did. Year after year, having paid their money over they were often turned away. No room, take a hike Jack, yea you paid to come in, so what, we got your money, we got the Gardí now PFO.

suppose this peaceful behavior was met with a growing arrogance.

suppose this airport authority got so ****-sure of their might and magnificence that they started, without so much as a bye or leave, to reduce the room for the Taxis, yes the same taxis which they had taken 440 euro off . This would ensure that the paid up taxi operators would be turned away more often.
supposing the taxi people, having been pushed to the limit and beyond were to take industrial action, not riot, not vandalise, but act in time honored fashion at their place of work.
And yet suppose so drunk with arrogance were this airport authority that they said NO!! we cannot be wrong. How dare you, any of you, how dare you....things! defy US!! We will do as we please. The consequences of our action we will be blind to. WE ARE THE DUBLIN AIRPORT AUTHORITY. and we will be right.


Applying the rule that "the Barron will always side against taxi drivers" we can observe that, even in the most blatant case of injustice, the Barron will in fact ALWAYS take sides against Taxi drivers and so, regardless of which interpretation of the rule we use, we can say that yes, "the Barron will always side against Taxi drivers"

Now for the tricky part, posting in two threads simultaneously.

VAT debacle in Taxi Industry
and
The 'phrases that you never quite understood' thread

Drum roll please.

[Baron von Biffo]

Feeling like a smart-alec tonight so I am going for a PW first (I think) could I hope for a forum first? with a "same post two threads" sanity defying post.
Here goes.
ready....................

The phrase "its the exception that proves the rule" is well known and almost always taken to mean that if something occurs which seems to break a rule, well that proves there must be a rule to brake. The exception to a rule is, according to this interpretation the very verification that the rule exists.

An example would be if, say, Baron von Biffo, was to declare that Taxi operators have right on their side in a particular dispute, well going on past record and in accordance with this interpretation of "the exception proves the rule" we could say there exists a rule that Herr Biffo will take sides against Taxi operators "as a rule".

You still with me?

Right so.............

An alternative and I think a better interpretation of this rule is, that if an exceptional set of circumstances are put to the test of complying with a presumed rule, and the rule is found wanting. Then it is found that the formerly presumed "rule" never existed.

The exception in this case would, by complying with the rule, prove the rule.

If the rule did not hold for the exception, there never was such a rule.

Again let us look to the good Barron to illustrate the point.

Let us again take the presumed rule that Barron von Biffo will always side against Taxi drivers.

suppose a case were to arrise where right was overwhelmingly on the side of Taxi operators.

say for example an airport authority which charged taxi drivers 440 euro per year to pick up passengers at their airport was to start turning away the same people who they had charged. Telling them "No, we took your money but now we want you to go away, now, quickly and quietly"

and suppose for peace sake they did. Year after year, having paid their money over they were often turned away. No room, take a hike Jack, yea you paid to come in, so what, we got your money, we got the Gardí now PFO.

suppose this peaceful behavior was met with a growing arrogance.

suppose this airport authority got so ****-sure of their might and magnificence that they started, without so much as a bye or leave, to reduce the room for the Taxis, yes the same taxis which they had taken 440 euro off . This would ensure that the paid up taxi operators would be turned away more often.
supposing the taxi people, having been pushed to the limit and beyond were to take industrial action, not riot, not vandalise, but act in time honored fashion at their place of work.
And yet suppose so drunk with arrogance were this airport authority that they said NO!! we cannot be wrong. How dare you, any of you, how dare you....things! defy US!! We will do as we please. The consequences of our action we will be blind to. WE ARE THE DUBLIN AIRPORT AUTHORITY. and we will be right.


Applying the rule that "the Barron will always side against taxi drivers" we can observe that, even in the most blatant case of injustice, the Barron will in fact ALWAYS take sides against Taxi drivers and so, regardless of which interpretation of the rule we use, we can say that yes, "the Barron will always side against Taxi drivers"

Now for the tricky part, posting in two threads simultaneously.

VAT debacle in Taxi Industry
and
The 'phrases that you never quite understood' thread

Drum roll please.

If you want to have a go at turning that into a coherent case I'll respond. Then again, if you had a coherent case you wouldn't have had to make it personal, would you?

[MPB]

If you want to have a go at turning that into a coherent case I'll respond. Then again, if you had a coherent case you wouldn't have had to make it personal, would you?

Simple fact is that Public Transort Providers, operating in a private capacity, but yet regulated by a public body, is being charged a fee by a public body, that has had the terms and conditions changed by said public body after the fees had been paid.

As somone so pro terms and conditions and contractual obligations, I would like to hear your arguments against the airport taxi drivers.

[Baron von Biffo]

Simple fact is that Public Transort Providers, operating in a private capacity, but yet regulated by a public body, is being charged a fee by a public body, that has had the terms and conditions changed by said public body after the fees had been paid.

As somone so pro terms and conditions and contractual obligations, I would like to hear your arguments against the airport taxi drivers.

If that was the case the drivers could have popped down to the courts and got an injunction.

[Slim Buddha]

If that was the case the drivers could have popped down to the courts and got an injunction.

You make it sound like a visit to Starbucks to get a skinny frappacino to go! I don't think in our common law legal system, things are designed to function as easily as this. Then this isn't common law, is it?

[Baron von Biffo]

You make it sound like a visit to Starbucks to get a skinny frappacino to go! I don't think in our common law legal system, things are designed to function as easily as this. Then this isn't common law, is it?

And it's well known that in common law jurisdictions no-one can get an injunction for any reason.

You have more than a little of the zeal of the converted about you Slim.

[Baron von Biffo]

The DAA caved in to the bullying.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/s...ow-564173.html

[DCon]

Airport strike averted for now

A TAXI strike at Dublin Airport has been called off after a deal was reached during intensive overnight talks.

Dublin Airport Authority (DAA) will restore disputed parking spaces for two weeks, during which time a permanent resolution must be reached with taxi representatives.

Drivers have ended their action, which was entering its third day, and returned to the airport's terminals to collect incoming passengers.

The row centred on access to spaces in an overflow area for drivers awaiting access to ranks. DAA said there are 55 disputed spaces, while taxi representatives said there are 70.

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-3208973.html

[eamo]

If you want to have a go at turning that into a coherent case I'll respond. Then again, if you had a coherent case you wouldn't have had to make it personal, would you?

Just having fun trying to make one post relevant on two threads. Nothing personal at all.

However you can expect a response when you go on like this:

Dublin airport roads blocked by taxis acting the bollocks doing slow drives in circles.

The bollock acting was by the DAA when they tried to milk their cash cow just once to often.

Caller who used to work in the motor trade scoring hits on the taxi industry's spinning about their earnings.

Only because the other people were to polite to call him out on his tall stories.
His nonsense jabber consisted of -years ago some taxi drivers told me one thing and then some other taxi drivers said something else- I was amazed they gave him air time at all. Fairy tails from his past was all he contributed.

Taxi drivers whinging on WhineLine now.

Live line serves a good function. I know it is almost universally sneered at on forums such as this but not everyone is on-line, and for those who aren't, even for those who are, Liveline can be their voice.

I'm not sure that independent businesses have a right to combine to 'strike'. Possibly dodgy under competition law.

I get the impression if you were around in famine times you would support evictions for not paying rent. Damn tenants cant complain, bloody whingers, don't they know ITS THE LAW!!

The DAA caved in to the bullying.

FFS Baron get a grip, the drivers are working class men and women with no resources not even the full backing of their unions, many immigrants, many lacking formal education, most living in relative poverty, some living in absolute poverty, and you seek to portray them as "bullying" the poor defenseless Dublin Airport Authority". Well now I've heard it all!

[Slim Buddha]

The DAA, like every other such quasi-State body, is stuffed with political ragwort, crap that should be terminated. Official Ireland is infested with politically-appointed rubbish and the DAA is yet another example of this. Yet some posters will defend this to the nth degree because they know nothing else and are safe in what they think is a comfort zone.

Terrifying nonsense.

[Baron von Biffo]

Just having fun trying to make one post relevant on two threads. Nothing personal at all.

However you can expect a response when you go on like this:

Ask anyone who was inconvenienced by the drivers who arrogantly decided to deny everyone else the use of the roads what they think of taxi people.

The bollock acting was by the DAA when they tried to milk their cash cow just once to often.

Why have the drivers been silent about this attempt to get more money from them? All they're saying to the public is that it's about is a few spaces less in the holding area.

If I was running the DAA (doesn't that prospect warm your heart?) what this stunt would tell me is that it's time to end the system of cheap individual permits. I'd have exclusive contracts with a group of companies to provide agreed levels of service. The companies would have to lodge a bond that would be forfeit if they failed to meet their targets. Any involvement in blocking the roads at the airport would mean immediate termination of the contract and a ban from ever getting back.

In other words, the sort of professional business arrangement that exists between professional business the world over.

Only because the other people were to polite to call him out on his tall stories.
His nonsense jabber consisted of -years ago some taxi drivers told me one thing and then some other taxi drivers said something else- I was amazed they gave him air time at all. Fairy tails from his past was all he contributed.

Another messenger shot. He pointed to inconsistencies in the claims taxi drivers make. When you kick off a very high profile dispute you can expect things like that.

Live line serves a good function. I know it is almost universally sneered at on forums such as this but not everyone is on-line, and for those who aren't, even for those who are, Liveline can be their voice.

The function of WhineLine is to generate revenue for RTE. While it may from time to time have someone on who has a reasonable point to make and is capable of making it intelligently, the typical show involves angry people screaming incoherent nonsense at each other. "We ped good munny for dah show Joe an' when we goh dare ih was rainin' knowwharrameein? All ri ih was outin the cunrty an' all bur I meein dey shoulda havin told us it couldda rained. Dis cuntrys a joke!"

I get the impression if you were around in famine times you would support evictions for not paying rent. Damn tenants cant complain, bloody whingers, don't they know ITS THE LAW!!

Yes yes, and you would have cut off your leg and cooked it for the orphans in the workhouse. We get the message - Anyone who doesn't agree 100% with everything a taxi driver says is pure evil.

FFS Baron get a grip, the drivers are working class men and women with no resources not even the full backing of their unions, many immigrants, many lacking formal education, most living in relative poverty, some living in absolute poverty, and you seek to portray them as "bullying" the poor defenseless Dublin Airport Authority". Well now I've heard it all!

Bilge. 400 cars blocking the roads is an act of bullying, plain and simple. What would your impoverished salt of the earth working class men and women have said if some working class family lost their holiday because they couldn't get through the blockade to check in?

[eamo]

Ask anyone who was inconvenienced by the drivers who arrogantly decided to deny everyone else the use of the roads what they think of taxi people.

Some people will support people struggling for justice, others will not. So has it always been.

Why have the drivers been silent about this attempt to get more money from them? All they're saying to the public is that it's about is a few spaces less in the holding area.

I thought I had explained this in my (admittedly flippant) post no.63.
The DAA want to take these taxi places for, as they themselves say "commercial reasons" i.e. to make money. The taxi drivers want to retain them to avoid an increase in the amount of times they are turned away from the airport, so preventing them from picking up a fare.
If the DAA manage to seise these places airport taxi drivers will earn less and the DAA will make more money. Add that to the charge for operating at the airport rank (440 euro) the only rank in the country that has a charge, and you have the reason I used the term "cash cow".
You could have saved me the bother of this explanation by engaging brain.

If I was running the DAA (doesn't that prospect warm your heart?) what this stunt would tell me is that it's time to end the system of cheap individual permits. I'd have exclusive contracts with a group of companies to provide agreed levels of service. The companies would have to lodge a bond that would be forfeit if they failed to meet their targets. Any involvement in blocking the roads at the airport would mean immediate termination of the contract and a ban from ever getting back.

In other words, the sort of professional business arrangement that exists between professional business the world over.

Now this really is hogwash, firstly on what basis do you claim the airport permits are "cheap".
Secondly what makes you think any company would be interested in lodging a bond with an outfit like the DAA ??? especially if it could be forfeit simply by the DAA acting the bollocks as in this case, and so provoking industrial action, again as in this case.
Thirdly don't you think if this fantastic scheme of yours were possible then we would have heard taxi companies canvasing on the airways for it.

Another messenger shot. He pointed to inconsistencies in the claims taxi drivers make. When you kick off a very high profile dispute you can expect things like that.

Again you show your anti-taxi driver prejudice, the dispute was "kicked off" when the DAA moved in and seised an area allocated to taxi drivers to park while attempting to make a living. And as I have said, yer man just told yarns from his past while adding "I was in the motor trade" to try to add some authority to his stories.

The function of WhineLine is to generate revenue for RTE. While it may from time to time have someone on who has a reasonable point to make and is capable of making it intelligently, the typical show involves angry people screaming incoherent nonsense at each other. "We ped good munny for dah show Joe an' when we goh dare ih was rainin' knowwharrameein? All ri ih was outin the cunrty an' all bur I meein dey shoulda havin told us it couldda rained. Dis cuntrys a joke!"

That is not my impression of the show.
Maybe you should give it another listen.
Slagging peoples accents belongs in the other parish I believe.

Yes yes, and you would have cut off your leg and cooked it for the orphans in the workhouse. We get the message - Anyone who doesn't agree 100% with everything a taxi driver says is pure evil.

OK, that is funny

I note however, that you have not denied that you might have thought evictions were OK. After all, they were legal.

Bilge. 400 cars blocking the roads is an act of bullying, plain and simple. What would your impoverished salt of the earth working class men and women have said if some working class family lost their holiday because they couldn't get through the blockade to check in?

The bully in this situation is the DAA.
That I think is clear to any fair minded person.

And 400 cars were not blocking the roads, well not on the one occasion I was out there. Taxis ware driving around quite slowly but the airport was still operating.
The drivers were standing up for themselves in a responsible and restrained manner. The three English people I had in the car were, when I explained what the protest was about actually quite supportive. It saddened me to see some Irish people in the moving convoy filled with rage at the sight of people fighting back.

I remember way back in my foolish youth thinking "the people wont stand for this", now I sadly know, many Irish people would turn on the oppressed to curry favor with the oppressor.

[Baron von Biffo]

Some people will support people struggling for justice, others will not. So has it always been.

With respect Eamo, justice me arse. It's a little commercial dispute and nothing more. There's no great point of justice at issue.

I thought I had explained this in my (admittedly flippant) post no.63.
The DAA want to take these taxi places for, as they themselves say "commercial reasons" i.e. to make money. The taxi drivers want to retain them to avoid an increase in the amount of times they are turned away from the airport, so preventing them from picking up a fare.
If the DAA manage to seise these places airport taxi drivers will earn less and the DAA will make more money. Add that to the charge for operating at the airport rank (440 euro) the only rank in the country that has a charge, and you have the reason I used the term "cash cow".
You could have saved me the bother of this explanation by engaging brain.

The DAA is a commercial state body that's supposed to make money for the exchequer. I'm delighted to hear they're taking that seriously. Why on earth do you think the DAA should be in the business of pushing up taxi drivers earnings?

Now this really is hogwash, firstly on what basis do you claim the airport permits are "cheap".

€1.20 a day which can be written off against tax is cheap.

Secondly what makes you think any company would be interested in lodging a bond with an outfit like the DAA ??? especially if it could be forfeit simply by the DAA acting the bollocks as in this case, and so provoking industrial action, again as in this case.

A company that wanted the business would pay the bond. If there was a dispute between the two professionally run businesses it would be dealt with through the courts so there wouldn't be wildcat disruptions by disgruntled amateurish operators like we saw this week.

Thirdly don't you think if this fantastic scheme of yours were possible then we would have heard taxi companies canvasing on the airways for it.

It would benefit customers by ensuring services and it would benefit the public by eliminating blockages of the roads so there's not a hope of the taxi industry canvassing for it.

Again you show your anti-taxi driver prejudice, the dispute was "kicked off" when the DAA moved in and seised an area allocated to taxi drivers to park while attempting to make a living. And as I have said, yer man just told yarns from his past while adding "I was in the motor trade" to try to add some authority to his stories.

I'm not going to call him a liar. His contribution sounded quite genuine and plausible to me.

That is not my impression of the show.
Maybe you should give it another listen.
Slagging peoples accents belongs in the other parish I believe.

To preserve the last pitiful vestiges of my sanity I seldom listen to it.

OK, that is funny

I note however, that you have not denied that you might have thought evictions were OK. After all, they were legal.

If you want to derail the thread with a discussion of the relative legitimacy of the laws passed on a colony by a foreign power versus the laws passed by our own democratically elected parliament I'll be happy to do that.

The bully in this situation is the DAA.
That I think is clear to any fair minded person.

And 400 cars were not blocking the roads, well not on the one occasion I was out there. Taxis ware driving around quite slowly but the airport was still operating.
The drivers were standing up for themselves in a responsible and restrained manner. The three English people I had in the car were, when I explained what the protest was about actually quite supportive. It saddened me to see some Irish people in the moving convoy filled with rage at the sight of people fighting back.

I remember way back in my foolish youth thinking "the people wont stand for this", now I sadly know, many Irish people would turn on the oppressed to curry favor with the oppressor.

If that saddened you then stock up on Kleenex because people are getting sick to the back teeth with taxi drivers bringing cities and towns to a halt whenever they don't get their own way.