The TD's who go to work.

[Slim Buddha]

And as for me introducing the "us and them" issue - you opened an entire whinging thread on this very subject lamenting the parish pump balance of power shifting from rural to urban constituencies. As if anyone in Dublin notices!!!

[Baron von Biffo]

And I am beginning to think you can feckin' read!!!

It is very simple - you devolve the whole thing and tie it to the money. So people in Laois have FULL control over the taxes raised in Laois exceopt those to go to a totally slimmed down national authority with liimited responsibility.

Finally, Laois people can build as many hospitals as you want, schools as you want, employ as many police as you want because it is YOUR taxes paying for it. YOU make the decision and vote accordingly.

Christ, what is so bloody difficult to understand????? "Them up in Dublin" will become a thing of the past because YOU, yes YOU in Laois are in control of Laois. Port Laoise is where all the decisions affecting Laois will be taken , not Dublin. If you want to vote for arseholes, you can but you will be paying for them!

But the same principle applies - you are in control.

I thought you would be overjoyed at the idea but I suspect, given your hostility, that the comfort blanket of having "them up in Dublin" (ironically, a majority of rurally elected TDs) to blame for everything would be missed far too much.

Ok very, very, very last attempt here.

Let's say I accept fully your thesis that everyone outside the M50 is an ignorant yokel who only votes the way he does to spite 'Them up in Dublin'. Coughlan, Cowen, Flynn O'Dea, the whole lot of them were just one big sulk on our part because we knew it would wind the Dubs up.

I'm also accepting that in your Brave New World we will be liberated from our Dublin oppressors and we will at last be masters of our own destiny. This does indeed have me overjoyed. In fact I've destroyed two perfectly good pairs of underpants in my excitement (one fairly dodgy pair as well but the less said of them the better ).

With the yoke of Dublin shrugged off our shoulders we will now change our voting behaviour and henceforth we shall choose none but saintly philosophers.

You should by now have grasped that I'm not disputing your grand plan as it will work in 25 counties. It's wonderful and wholly without flaw. Hopefully we need never hear another tiresome word about how much it will benefit Laois.

So now we're back to the weak spot in your case. We know the boggers elected dodgy politicians to spite Dublin but - and I know this will hurt but it has to be said - The Dubs elected some real beauts as well. Why did the Dubs elect Haughey, Ahern, Lawlor, Harney, Lenihan and Burke? And why would the Dubs stop electing such dross under your system (which will be very beneficial to Laois I have to admit so we needn't go down that cul de sac again)?

[Baron von Biffo]

And as for me introducing the "us and them" issue - you opened an entire whinging thread on this very subject lamenting the parish pump balance of power shifting from rural to urban constituencies. As if anyone in Dublin notices!!!

In this thread the it was you who introduced a 'them and us' argument in Post No. 39.

[Slim Buddha]

Ok very, very, very last attempt here.

Let's say I accept fully your thesis that everyone outside the M50 is an ignorant yokel who only votes the way he does to spite 'Them up in Dublin'. Coughlan, Cowen, Flynn O'Dea, the whole lot of them were just one big sulk on our part because we knew it would wind the Dubs up.

I'm also accepting that in your Brave New World we will be liberated from our Dublin oppressors and we will at last be masters of our own destiny. This does indeed have me overjoyed. In fact I've destroyed two perfectly good pairs of underpants in my excitement (one fairly dodgy pair as well but the less said of them the better ).

With the yoke of Dublin shrugged off our shoulders we will now change our voting behaviour and henceforth we shall choose none but saintly philosophers.

You should by now have grasped that I'm not disputing your grand plan as it will work in 25 counties. It's wonderful and wholly without flaw. Hopefully we need never hear another tiresome word about how much it will benefit Laois.

So now we're back to the weak spot in your case. We know the boggers elected dodgy politicians to spite Dublin but - and I know this will hurt but it has to be said - The Dubs elected some real beauts as well. Why did the Dubs elect Haughey, Ahern, Lawlor, Harney, Lenihan and Burke? And why would the Dubs stop electing such dross under your system (which will be very beneficial to Laois I have to admit so we needn't go down that cul de sac again)?

Simple. The penny will drop in every county that the people they vote in to the local county administration are spending the taxes they, the voters, pay. so people everywhere will begin to associate they way they vote with the amount of taxes they pay. Remember, there will be no fairy godmother in Dublin or anywhere else to bail them out if they screw up. Just the facility to borrow from the central bank, to be paid back with interest.

Got it?

Ok, signing off on this for the time being. I will be back to flesh it out in much greater detail later.

[Baron von Biffo]

Simple. The penny will drop in every county that the people they vote in to the local county administration are spending the taxes they, the voters, pay. so people everywhere will begin to associate they way they vote with the amount of taxes they pay. Remember, there will be no fairy godmother in Dublin or anywhere else to bail them out if they screw up. Just the facility to borrow from the central bank, to be paid back with interest.

Got it?

Ok, signing off on this for the time being. I will be back to flesh it out in much greater detail later.

I await with bated breath the explanation for a sudden change in the voting behaviour of Dubs.

[Slim Buddha]

Well, I live in such a system now and see the benefits of it. It certainly beats being "governed" by a useless, incompetent rabble of semi-pissed criminal hicks who don't know their arse from their elbow.

[Baron von Biffo]

Well, I live in such a system now and see the benefits of it. It certainly beats being "governed" by a useless, incompetent rabble of semi-pissed criminal hicks who don't know their arse from their elbow.

Don't you also live in a place with a well developed culture of citizenship and civic responsibility?

[Slim Buddha]

Yes. "With rights come responsibilities - responsibilities to your community, to your canton, to the Bund"

This is inculcated at a very early age. The McCreevy-Harney "cult of the individual" would get very short shrift here. It would be regarded simply as "non-Swiss". Much the same way as someone here who suggests joining the EU is regarded.

[Baron von Biffo]

Yes. "With rights come responsibilities - responsibilities to your community, to your canton, to the Bund"

This is inculcated at a very early age. The McCreevy-Harney "cult of the individual" would get very short shrift here. It would be regarded simply as "non-Swiss". Much the same way as someone here who suggests joining the EU is regarded.

And until we have that sort of mindset here it would be a waste of time and effort to fart around with changing the electoral system.

Having fewer TDs, abolishing the Seanad, single seat constituencies, federal systems or any other grand scheme wont make a blind bit of difference if the voters just elect the same people.

[Slim Buddha]

And until we have that sort of mindset here it would be a waste of time and effort to fart around with changing the electoral system.

Having fewer TDs, abolishing the Seanad, single seat constituencies, federal systems or any other grand scheme wont make a blind bit of difference if the voters just elect the same people.

In that case, there is no point in trying to improve anything, is there? I mean, if the people are going to vote for idiots in a truly dire system , we must assume that, in a vastly improved system where the way they vote directly impacts on their taxes, they will vote for similar wasteful poltroons. Really?

I am not so sure. In Lausanne a few years back, voters voted for higher taxes because it was explained to them that the higher tax would last 3 years, it was to be ring-fenced to go towards the building of a hospital, and should there be any funds left over after all costs for the building were met, this would be returned to the voters.

Earlier this year, a referendum took place, the purpose of which was to give an extra bank holiday to the Swiss population. The Swiss voted against it for economic reasons, figuring they did not need and extra bank holiday.

So I suppose this behaviour is down to a highly developed sense of civic responsibility. It must be remembered that the population have a lot of control over their politicians. A politician in Kanton Vaud was found guilty of fiddling his expenses, lodging a fraudulent clain for over CHF 7,000. He was given a 12 month sentence, 6 of which was suspended on appeal. Stealing citizens money here is a criminal offence. In Ireland it seems to be a national sport.

The Swiss system of government is unique but politicians in other countries are very unenthusiastic about it mainly because it sets so many controls on politicians. The people are in charge and long may it last.

[Baron von Biffo]

In that case, there is no point in trying to improve anything, is there?

So there's no point treating broken legs because we don't have a cure for the common cold?

You have a lovely solution to a problem that doesn't exist and you refuse to even think about the real problem.

I mean, if the people are going to vote for idiots in a truly dire system , we must assume that, in a vastly improved system where the way they vote directly impacts on their taxes, they will vote for similar wasteful poltroons. Really?

The way we vote today has an impact on our taxes (and there really is more to government than taxes) but hasn't stopped us electing poor politicians. Look at the last GE when we re-elected the Finance minister who made such a complete dogs bollocks of the national finances that we'll be paying tax for nothing for a generation.

I am not so sure. In Lausanne a few years back, voters voted for higher taxes because it was explained to them that the higher tax would last 3 years, it was to be ring-fenced to go towards the building of a hospital, and should there be any funds left over after all costs for the building were met, this would be returned to the voters.

Earlier this year, a referendum took place, the purpose of which was to give an extra bank holiday to the Swiss population. The Swiss voted against it for economic reasons, figuring they did not need and extra bank holiday.

So I suppose this behaviour is down to a highly developed sense of civic responsibility. It must be remembered that the population have a lot of control over their politicians. A politician in Kanton Vaud was found guilty of fiddling his expenses, lodging a fraudulent clain for over CHF 7,000. He was given a 12 month sentence, 6 of which was suspended on appeal. Stealing citizens money here is a criminal offence. In Ireland it seems to be a national sport.

The Swiss system of government is unique but politicians in other countries are very unenthusiastic about it mainly because it sets so many controls on politicians. The people are in charge and long may it last.

You can impose Swiss forms on us until we ***** Toblerone but while the substance is still Irish nothing will change. Just look at the Taxi-VAT thread and you'll see the immediate reaction is to find a political way to avoid paying the tax that's due. Every street could have its own government and it wouldn't matter a damn while that mindset persists.

[Slim Buddha]

So there's no point treating broken legs because we don't have a cure for the common cold?

You have a lovely solution to a problem that doesn't exist and you refuse to even think about the real problem.



The way we vote today has an impact on our taxes (and there really is more to government than taxes) but hasn't stopped us electing poor politicians. Look at the last GE when we re-elected the Finance minister who made such a complete dogs bollocks of the national finances that we'll be paying tax for nothing for a generation.


I was being ironic with my first two sentences but it clearly went over you head.


You can impose Swiss forms on us until we ***** Toblerone but while the substance is still Irish nothing will change. Just look at the Taxi-VAT thread and you'll see the immediate reaction is to find a political way to avoid paying the tax that's due. Every street could have its own government and it wouldn't matter a damn while that mindset persists.

You are right. You get the government you deserve. I am just happy I do not have to live under it. You have clearly given up but not stopped giving out. You clearly have little idea what direct democracy involves as it is practically applied to Switzerland and believe that the mindset in ireland must change before the system changes.

Good luck with that!

[Baron von Biffo]

You are right. You get the government you deserve. I am just happy I do not have to live under it. You have clearly given up but not stopped giving out. You clearly have little idea what direct democracy involves as it is practically applied to Switzerland and believe that the mindset in ireland must change before the system changes.

Good luck with that!

Living in the real world isn't giving up.

[Slim Buddha]

Living in the real world isn't giving up.

Absolutely correct. There is a whole world outside Ireland of which a lot of irish people people appear to be blissfully unaware. And it is thankfully very real!

[Baron von Biffo]

Absolutely correct. There is a whole world outside Ireland of which a lot of irish people people appear to be blissfully unaware. And it is thankfully very real!

Paddy is woeful thick. Sure if it wasn't for them for'ners we'd all be atin our own feet for want of a bit of mate.