Who Goes to Jail - Big Increase in Jailings for Non Payment of Fines

[C. Flower]

In 2009, there was a 90% increase in jailings for non-payment of fines.

This may have been in part because of a change of system which meant people could not pay in installments.

A new system is to be introduced in 2013, that is intended to reduce jailings.

In the meantime, they have gone through the roof.

Since the demise of the Celtic Tiger economy, the number of people being committed to jail for non-payment of court-ordered fines has been growing precipitately, from 2,520 in 2008 to 4,470 in the first six months of 2012.

This would suggest that a record 9,400 are likely to be committed in 2012, which will exceed last year’s record total of 7,514. That would amount to a 25% increase.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion...ke-201709.html

A lot of these people will only spend one night in jail, after being picked up by the police and delivered there. The jails are already overcrowded. Being imprisoned is the single greatest risk for suicide of any life event.

Ireland uses Community Service as an alternative much less than most EU states.

Being imprisoned for non payment of fines is a result of poverty, in the vast majority of cases. The rich can walk away from the same offences laughing.

http://www.iprt.ie/prison-facts-2

In 2011, there were 1,300 people sent to prison for non-payment of fines in Limerick alone, at vast cost to the exchequer. Most did not pay because they could not pay, and the original offence was a result of not having money (non payment of motor tax, tv licence etc.)

http://www.limerickpost.ie/index.php...n-payment.html

MORE than 1,300 people - many cash-strapped - were sent to Limerick Prison last year for failure to pay fines imposed for road traffic offences and non-payment of the TV licence fee.
It has emerged that a growing number are contacting a local debt support organisation in fear their children will be put into care when a prison sentence is the only option open to them.

Figures obtained by the Limerick Post show that 895 men and 448 women were sent to jail in 2011 for non-payment of fines imposed by the court, mostly for offences such as speeding and road tax.
And this figure may be even higher, as the Prison Service has yet to finalise information for 2011.
A custodial sentence ranging from five days to a month, can be applied by court judges to those who default in payment of a fine.
Prison Service sources confirmed that defaulters are usually processed and sent home the same day, but some do spend a night in custody.
One Limerick man spent a day in a holding cell with six others who had defaulted on fines.
The man - whose business collapsed in the recession - said he simply didn’t have the €600 to pay a fine. The holding cell, he added, smelled of urine.
“Of the seven of us, five were of unblemished character, without a single criminal conviction. And all were in custody because of the recession; we couldn’t pay court fines. Six were in for minor traffic offences”.
Said Seamus Sherlock, founder of Life After Debt, the Limerick Organisation for people in financial trouble.
“I have calls from people terrified about the prospect of prison. I try to tell them that it will more than likely be for a few hours, but all they can see is the word ‘prison,’

“I had one from a woman who was petrified. She saw herself in jail, her children in care and her family home gone. She was frantic with no way of paying the fines, and no matter how I tried to convince her those things wouldn’t happen, she was still terrified”.

Mr Sherlock says that something has to be done.
“The judges hands are tied but it would be much better if people were to do community service. It would be productive, at least”.

[Baron von Biffo]

Three changes would improve things - First, seizure orders for non payment of fines. Someone doesn't pay motoring fines then seize the car. They don't pay the TV licence, all their tellys are seized.

Second, attachment orders. Have outstanding fines and costs deducted at source from income. Obviously that would have to be done humanely.

Third, end the system of flat rate fines and base them on annual income instead. A €200 fine for someone on the dole is more than 2% of his annual income while the same fine for a company CEO might be less than he'd spend on a bottle of wine with his dinner.

[C. Flower]

Three changes would improve things - First, seizure orders for non payment of fines. Someone doesn't pay motoring fines then seize the car. They don't pay the TV licence, all their tellys are seized.

Second, attachment orders. Have outstanding fines and costs deducted at source from income. Obviously that would have to be done humanely.

Third, end the system of flat rate fines and base them on annual income instead. A €200 fine for someone on the dole is more than 2% of his annual income while the same fine for a company CEO might be less than he'd spend on a bottle of wine with his dinner.

For someone losing their car, that could also be the end of their job, or the way they take their children to school.

For someone losing their TV, because they couldn't afford the licence, it is very likely the children who would be the ones to lose out.

Community service is a serious deterrent for messers, but would allow someone in genuine difficulty an alternative.

Jail seems mainly to be for people who are illiterate, addicted, depressed or mentally unwell, or dead broke.

[Seán Ryan]

It Seems that Seamus Sherlock, the founder of 'Life After Debt' who is quoted in Cactus' quote above, is now facing the threat of eviction himself.

He has asked that folks come to join him in his current barricade. Activists have already started to head to Limerick in support.

Anyone interested in lending a hand, here are some details:

Seamus Sherlock – 0834166136
Appletown, Feohanagh village,
Co Limerick.
(Five miles out the Drumcollager Rd driving from NewCastle).

Apologies for sidetracking the thread.

[C. Flower]

It Seems that Seamus Sherlock, the founder of 'Life After Debt' who is quoted in Cactus' quote above, is now facing the threat of eviction himself.

He has asked that folks come to join him in his current barricade. Activists have already started to head to Limerick in support.

Anyone interested in lending a hand, here are some details:

Seamus Sherlock – 0834166136
Appletown, Feohanagh village,
Co Limerick.
(Five miles out the Drumcollager Rd driving from NewCastle).

Apologies for sidetracking the thread.

Sorry to hear this.

In Ireland, only the rich can go bankrupt, and get to keep the mansion. The Personal Insolvency Act is very little help to anyone.

[Baron von Biffo]

For someone losing their car, that could also be the end of their job, or the way they take their children to school.

For someone losing their TV, because they couldn't afford the licence, it is very likely the children who would be the ones to lose out.

Community service is a serious deterrent for messers, but would allow someone in genuine difficulty an alternative.

Jail seems mainly to be for people who are illiterate, addicted, depressed or mentally unwell, or dead broke.

Community service would be no use in the circumstances you describe. If someone can't afford to tax the car or buy a TV licence then they'll still be breaking the law if they use them after being convicted.

You're making a case for waivers rather than changing the fines system.

[C. Flower]

Community service would be no use in the circumstances you describe. If someone can't afford to tax the car or buy a TV licence then they'll still be breaking the law if they use them after being convicted.

You're making a case for waivers rather than changing the fines system.

Fining them only adds coals to the fire.

The situation is serious and will only be made worse by jailing people because they are broke.

[Baron von Biffo]

Fining them only adds coals to the fire.

The situation is serious and will only be made worse by jailing people because they are broke.

So how would you address repeat offending for things like car tax or TV licences?

[C. Flower]

So how would you address repeat offending for things like car tax or TV licences?

Put TV costs on income tax. One licence per household.

Put car tax on petrol.

[Baron von Biffo]

Put TV costs on income tax. One licence per household.

Not a fair way of doing it. Putting it on income tax means that it's paid by people without tellys and households with more than one wage earner pay more than one licence. By excluding those who don't pay income tax, because they earn too little or too much, you push up the cost for everyone else.

Put car tax on petrol.

Some parts of the country have multiple, subsidised public transport systems making a car an optional luxury but others have no public transport so a car is a necessity. Putting car tax on petrol/diesel would be as unjust as the septic tank tax where some of us get services free at point of use and others are taxed for providing their own services.

[C. Flower]

Not a fair way of doing it. Putting it on income tax means that it's paid by people without tellys and households with more than one wage earner pay more than one licence. By excluding those who don't pay income tax, because they earn too little or too much, you push up the cost for everyone else.

Some parts of the country have multiple, subsidised public transport systems making a car an optional luxury but others have no public transport so a car is a necessity. Putting car tax on petrol/diesel would be as unjust as the septic tank tax where some of us get services free at point of use and others are taxed for providing their own services.

Free broadband should do it Before too long everything will be streamed.

The "everyone doesn't use it" argument applies to all public services. Plenty of people don't use libraries - that doesn't mean they shouldn't be provided.

Putting car tax on petrol instead of motor tax would help the rural dwellers who are struggling to keep a car on the road - they could cut back to essential use without losing the use of the car. It would particularly benefit older/retired people.

[Baron von Biffo]

Free broadband should do it Before too long everything will be streamed.

The "everyone doesn't use it" argument applies to all public services. Plenty of people don't use libraries - that doesn't mean they shouldn't be provided.

There's a membership fee for libraries.

Putting car tax on petrol instead of motor tax would help the rural dwellers who are struggling to keep a car on the road - they could cut back to essential use without losing the use of the car. It would particularly benefit older/retired people.

You're a very perplexing person - I can't understand you at all. You oppose water charges which are for a publicly provided service but then you advocate taxing people for a service they don't receive.

No-one benefits from having having to pay more taxes precisely because they don't get a public service.

[C. Flower]

There's a membership fee for libraries.

You're a very perplexing person - I can't understand you at all. You oppose water charges which are for a publicly provided service but then you advocate taxing people for a service they don't receive.

No-one benefits from having having to pay more taxes precisely because they don't get a public service.

Water taxes if not paid per household must be paid out of other taxation.

I'm in favour of a combination of income taxes and asset taxes. Abolish VAT and end fines as a form of punishment as they are grossly inequitable in impact.

Where services are essential for normal living, they should be publicly provided out of tax.

Library membership does not pay anything like the real cost of library services. Might as well abolish it and fund the service from taxes.
Libraries should be developed into literacy centres, so that everyone can read if they want to.

[Baron von Biffo]

Water taxes if not paid per household must be paid out of other taxation.

Then why are you opposing them?

I'm in favour of a combination of income taxes and asset taxes. Abolish VAT and end fines as a form of punishment as they are grossly inequitable in impact.

Fines aren't inherently inequitable, it's having fixed cash amounts rather than income based fines that does the harm. If the fine for say, illegal parking was 1/2 days income rather than €80 it would have the same impact on a billionaire as a minimum wage worker.

Where services are essential for normal living, they should be publicly provided out of tax.

And where the service isn't provided out of tax, as is the case with rural water and sewage, would you charge less tax?

Library membership does not pay anything like the real cost of library services. Might as well abolish it and fund the service from taxes.
Libraries should be developed into literacy centres, so that everyone can read if they want to.

The TV licence doesn't pay the entire cost of RTE.