Re-Unionists to have their fancy tickled again

[bernadette]

It is a lot more than the GFA, Cactus, and it is concentrated not on the North but on the South. The reason for it I believe is simple- from the point of view of Westminster it is an exploratory charm offensive in the south not just around normalisation of an old conflict but because the UK itself is massively overcrowded and must import much of the food it requires.

The scarcity of farmland- given the pressures on long supply lines and oil depletion around the world means that the UK in the future must source basic foods closer to home. I can see that developing in the UK as massive factory farms are again being mooted on the beef/pork side of things and with the urban sprawl of over 70million people in and around large cities there really is nowhere near enough farmland in the UK to feed its people.

Ireland is what- three fifths the size of the UK and is predominantly farmland with a population of four million odd.

My own theory in short is that beyond the GFA and Northern Ireland there is something else in the wind here and the conditions are evident to lend credence to Westminster eyeing up the island next door with a fresh outlook.

I hope I'm wrong. And I wouldn't say much about it except that the sort of soft campaign that comes with any such maneouvering is in evidence.

What would be wrong with increased agricultural trade between us? I think it makes sense! and that it would be very good for our farmers. The huge fields/factory farms are surely not likely to come about except by our choice. Our farms are owned by us. It may be that in time there could be more cooperatives is that a bad thing?

I see increased trade as benefitial and inevitable. If we sell ourselves short, again, that will be our fault not theirs.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

All for it, bernadette. Agricultural products are still pretty much the only indigenous Irish industry. I'd just prefer the ownership of it stayed in Irish hands.

[Shaadi]

It is a lot more than the GFA, Cactus, and it is concentrated not on the North but on the South. The reason for it I believe is simple- from the point of view of Westminster it is an exploratory charm offensive in the south not just around normalisation of an old conflict but because the UK itself is massively overcrowded and must import much of the food it requires.

The scarcity of farmland- given the pressures on long supply lines and oil depletion around the world means that the UK in the future must source basic foods closer to home. I can see that developing in the UK as massive factory farms are again being mooted on the beef/pork side of things and with the urban sprawl of over 70million people in and around large cities there really is nowhere near enough farmland in the UK to feed its people.

Ireland is what- three fifths the size of the UK and is predominantly farmland with a population of four million odd.

My own theory in short is that beyond the GFA and Northern Ireland there is something else in the wind here and the conditions are evident to lend credence to Westminster eyeing up the island next door with a fresh outlook.

I hope I'm wrong. And I wouldn't say much about it except that the sort of soft campaign that comes with any such maneouvering is in evidence.

In terms of long term planning, it's in Britain's strategic interest to promote good relations with us, like a British version of the Monroe Doctrine. Proper long term planning would dictate that they cover all the bases, Military security, Food security, Energy security.

We're at a point in history where the Global power balance is shifting from West to East, where the CNR over the next few decades will approach majority status in NI and the Scots are threatening to go their own way. With that scenario looming. London could be left outside the EU core by the developing 2 tier European Union and it's own publics hostility to the EU.

We're their back door, through out their history they have always seen us as a possible conduit for a potential foreign threat to them, hence their desire to Anglicise us through the centuries.

I believe that their long term plan is to give up the North in return for a security accommodation with Ireland, where we give them access to our waters and skies, a modern version of the Treaty Ports.

The recent charm offensive and subtle pulling us back into the family should be seen in that context.,

[bernadette]

All for it, bernadette. Agricultural products are still pretty much the only indigenous Irish industry. I'd just prefer the ownership of it stayed in Irish hands.

But why should it change hands? The Brits may want to buy but we would have to sell and we could introduce charges etc. making that er, difficult, that's assuming anyone wanted to sell.

Its about confidence we need to be more confident in dealing with the Brits we don't need them but they almost certainly will need our produce. I've a feeling that as travel becomes easier and it will one of our problems will be commuter traffic.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I would say that is on the money Shaadi. To the UK Foreign Office we are always either a threat behind them or an opportunity before them.

And it has nothing whatsoever to do with reconciliation. It will be based on an economic analysis of possible advantage to the UK.

Which is fine. Because if the UK needs a whacking increase in foods sourced in Ireland then all to the good for us as sellers.

But we have a terrible habit of giving away resources and seeing Ministers disappear into a large new house just built after they have apparently sweated buckets in tense negotions on behalf of the country.

Or translated directly from the Gaelge - 'Here's your envelope, Mick.' And I see nothing to indicate that we have run out of 'Envelope Micks'.

[Apjp]

" It was all far too ready to allow people of uncertain loyalty to simply pretend to be Irish while folding another flag away carefully in their attic."

Con, they were called Protestants, and it sounds like almost all of them would have been forced to leave the state if you had had your way.

I think that your post is the sort that helps to facilitate the emergence into the daylight of the sectarian, ethnic cleansing nature of much of what passes for Irish "republicanism".

In the film "The wind that shakes the barley" a unionist landlord, about to be executed for spying for the British, predicts that an independent Ireland will be a "priest ridden backwater." He was right.

And what freedoms has our independence given us so far? The freedom not to have a National Health Service. The freedom not to have proper tenant protection laws (oh, the irony!!), the freedom not to have a right to roam over our own hills and valleys - all of which we would now have under UK law.

Our independence was won by a class of petty-bourgeois kulaks who were not fit to run a country, and so far, nothing seems to have changed.

Are you saying we should have stayed in Britain as a subject serf like race? Judging by your previous comments with how Home Rule would have more or less been the solution to all our problems and your comments here, you seem to regret the modicum of independence the state got in 1922.

[C. Flower]

In terms of long term planning, it's in Britain's strategic interest to promote good relations with us, like a British version of the Monroe Doctrine. Proper long term planning would dictate that they cover all the bases, Military security, Food security, Energy security.

We're at a point in history where the Global power balance is shifting from West to East, where the CNR over the next few decades will approach majority status in NI and the Scots are threatening to go their own way. With that scenario looming. London could be left outside the EU core by the developing 2 tier European Union and it's own publics hostility to the EU.

We're their back door, through out their history they have always seen us as a possible conduit for a potential foreign threat to them, hence their desire to Anglicise us through the centuries.

I believe that their long term plan is to give up the North in return for a security accommodation with Ireland, where we give them access to our waters and skies, a modern version of the Treaty Ports.

The recent charm offensive and subtle pulling us back into the family should be seen in that context.,

Give up the North, in return for the whole of Ireland, some form of Protectorate.

Our economies are very closely entwined and we now owe them billions as part of the bailout, on goodness knows what terms.

@Richard - take a look at Wales and see what shape it is in.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Exactly. There are some damn fools in Dublin mainly who seem to think it would be good for business to join the Union just as the Union is looking rocky- or moo about joining the Commonwealth.

That is exactly what would happen to Ireland- it would be a handout for Westminster insiders and the clowns who opened the gates would be slung an OBE and a pint at a Buck House garden party to keep them quiet.

As a nation, historically, we have been afflicted by the dopiness and self interest of our own as much as any external influence. In both physical and metaphysical colonial experiences. No one ever had to invade Ireland- they simply had to wait for a handy invitation from some home-grown clown in trouble with his neighbours.

Some things don't change.

[Apjp]

Exactly. There are some damn fools in Dublin mainly who seem to think it would be good for business to join the Union just as the Union is looking rocky- or moo about joining the Commonwealth.

That is exactly what would happen to Ireland- it would be a handout for Westminster insiders and the clowns who opened the gates would be slung an OBE and a pint at a Buck House garden party to keep them quiet.

As a nation, historically, we have been afflicted by the dopiness and self interest of our own as much as any external influence. In both physical and metaphysical colonial experiences. No one ever had to invade Ireland- they simply had to wait for a handy invitation from some home-grown clown in trouble with his neighbours.

Some things don't change.

Im betting your thinking of the deposed King of Leinster line here?

The worrying thing is our future either lays as a european/troika colony or a re-colonised member of the Union. It's hard to see anybody here bothering to complain captain. Survival is all Paddy knows, whatever the cost to himself. What's it been now? 4 years since we handed Ireland over to the bankers financially and 2 years since we handed Ireland over to the imperialist forces politically and economically. Seen any major protests aside from small issues like the household charge? Anyone seen anything hinting at a desire for change in their local town? This place is seemingly doomed to rest a conservative quagmire that the natives are afraid to run.

[fluffybiscuits]

Im betting your thinking of the deposed King of Leinster line here?

The worrying thing is our future either lays as a european/troika colony or a re-colonised member of the Union. It's hard to see anybody here bothering to complain captain. Survival is all Paddy knows, whatever the cost to himself. What's it been now? 4 years since we handed Ireland over to the bankers financially and 2 years since we handed Ireland over to the imperialist forces politically and economically. Seen any major protests aside from small issues like the household charge? Anyone seen anything hinting at a desire for change in their local town? This place is seemingly doomed to rest a conservative quagmire that the natives are afraid to run.

Survival at the moment would entail us joining a union with the British under some sort of rule where we are semi autonomous but they take the mantle where our financial and defence arrangements are concerned. We owe them in the region of about six billion and probably a whole lot more too but what would our biggest barrier be? Republicanism in its most incendery form. Cue us joining the British and a spate of bombings and empty speeches from theose who claimed they fopught for British rule. We are not going to please everyone. It may not be the correct measure to do politically but we have toi ensure that we ensure that any decision made is in the interest of the people.

[Apjp]

Survival at the moment would entail us joining a union with the British under some sort of rule where we are semi autonomous but they take the mantle where our financial and defence arrangements are concerned. We owe them in the region of about six billion and probably a whole lot more too but what would our biggest barrier be? Republicanism in its most incendery form. Cue us joining the British and a spate of bombings and empty speeches from theose who claimed they fopught for British rule. We are not going to please everyone. It may not be the correct measure to do politically but we have toi ensure that we ensure that any decision made is in the interest of the people.

The problem with this society is that even the government decides what we get to decide. We won't be deciding our future, the rent boys in Leinster house will. We don't exactly live in a democracy. Electing a government is all we get to do and modern elections are farcical. None of this however means that we should refer to our great deference to foreign rule just because it stopped some of our ancestors from starving.

[Shaadi]

The problem with this society is that even the government decides what we get to decide. We won't be deciding our future, the rent boys in Leinster house will. We don't exactly live in a democracy. Electing a government is all we get to do and modern elections are farcical. None of this however means that we should refer to our great deference to foreign rule just because it stopped some of our ancestors from starving.

We live in a democracy, there's nothing stopping the electorate from turfing out politicians every five years. We give the status quo politicians our blessing because we're as corrupt as they are.

You teach people how to treat you. We tell the politicians to carry on as usual by electing politicians that we know are not interested in change. We b1tch and moan about them but lack the radicalism to try something new.

All the bitching by the public about not getting a vote on the bailout was hollow. They could have put a few hundred thousand people on the street and demanded a say, they got the opportunity to give their retrospective opinion on it when access to a second bailout was the selling point of the Fiscal Treaty. They gave their verdict, it turns out they were full of crap about being against the first bailout.

Bad and all as our politicians are, a few hundred thousand protesters on the street will get their attention. We're just too comfortable and too venal to tackle them.

[Apjp]

We live in a democracy, there's nothing stopping the electorate from turfing out politicians every five years. We give the status quo politicians our blessing because we're as corrupt as they are.

You teach people how to treat you. We tell the politicians to carry on as usual by electing politicians that we know are not interested in change. We b1tch and moan about them but lack the radicalism to try something new.

All the bitching by the public about not getting a vote on the bailout was hollow. They could have put a few hundred thousand people on the street and demanded a say, they got the opportunity to give their retrospective opinion on it when access to a second bailout was the selling point of the Fiscal Treaty. They gave their verdict, it turns out they were full of crap about being against the first bailout.

Bad and all as our politicians are, a few hundred thousand protesters on the street will get their attention. We're just too comfortable and too venal to tackle them.

Well I'm not part of that we anyways but I get your point. I share it as well but my point is Ireland is not a very democratic society. I would say that referenda aren't exactly democratic either considering the fear agenda exploited by the media here. Yes people are gullible, but there's something disturbing about a 'democracy' that scaremongers its citizens.Liam Mellows had it right not the will of the people but the fear of the people and a society that was started by fear will be afraid a long time.

[fluffybiscuits]

The problem with this society is that even the government decides what we get to decide. We won't be deciding our future, the rent boys in Leinster house will. We don't exactly live in a democracy. Electing a government is all we get to do and modern elections are farcical. None of this however means that we should refer to our great deference to foreign rule just because it stopped some of our ancestors from starving.

Shaadi summed it up good. We are giving the rent boys who run the country a mandate to screw up the country again via economically destroying the country and throwing the working class into a den of uncertainty. We do need a revolution of sorts but as the words of a song I like go

Cause I can’t change, I can’t change the world alone
I need you all, everybody, start dreaming of it
And take your step that’s gonna make a difference and change your world