Anthony Lyons - once again, one law for the rich ...

[Slim Buddha]

Isn't Shatter proposing changes there?

I won't hold my breath. The legal profession, deeply rooted as it is in 18th century ritual, will resist change simply because it can.

It really is unfit for purpose and we missed a golden opportunity on independence to dump it and institute codified law. But we are stuck with it now and we have to find a way to make it work as well as possible. It is, however, like putting a saddle on a cow.

[Baron von Biffo]

I won't hold my breath. The legal profession, deeply rooted as it is in 18th century ritual, will resist change simply because it can.

It really is unfit for purpose and we missed a golden opportunity on independence to dump it and institute codified law. But we are stuck with it now and we have to find a way to make it work as well as possible. It is, however, like putting a saddle on a cow.

Slim you have me seriously perplexed at this stage. What do you understand by the term 'codified law'?

[Slim Buddha]

Slim you have me seriously perplexed at this stage. What do you understand by the term 'codified law'?

England and Wales use Common Law. We inherited it. Northern Ireland uses Common Law too. Variants of Common Law are found in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, the USA and Canada. In fact, in a lot of places which once constituted the British Empire.

Codified Law is what is sometimes termed Napoleonic Law, a French invention but its successor, codified law, is widely used in Europe and almost all European countries use a variant of codified law.

I work extensively in contract law. What is important for me is the Swiss Code of Obligations, the code governing contract law in Switzerland. The terms of Articles 1-550 of the code are "read into" every contract under Swiss Law. As a result, contracts are much shorter and more easily understood than their common law equivalents mainly because the code is present in all contracts.

[Baron von Biffo]

England and Wales use Common Law. We inherited it. Northern Ireland uses Common Law too. Variants of Common Law are found in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, the USA and Canada. In fact, in a lot of places which once constituted the British Empire.

Codified Law is what is sometimes termed Napoleonic Law, a French invention but its successor, codified law, is widely used in Europe and almost all European countries use a variant of codified law.

I work extensively in contract law. What is important for me is the Swiss Code of Obligations, the code governing contract law in Switzerland. The terms of Articles 1-550 of the code are "read into" every contract under Swiss Law. As a result, contracts are much shorter and more easily understood than their common law equivalents mainly because the code is present in all contracts.

I'm wondering how you see that making a difference either in the Lyons case or how barristers are employed.

BTW, I think that credit for the invention of codification usually goes to Hammurabi.

[Slim Buddha]

I'm wondering how you see that making a difference either in the Lyons case or how barristers are employed.

BTW, I think that credit for the invention of codification usually goes to Hammurabi.

Are you familiar how a criminal investigation is conducted under codified law?

[Baron von Biffo]

Are you familiar how a criminal investigation is conducted under codified law?

I presume you mean the French inquisitorial system?

You don't need a codified system to implement that nor is it a requirement of such a system so far as I'm aware.

[Slim Buddha]

I presume you mean the French inquisitorial system?

You don't need a codified system to implement that nor is it a requirement of such a system so far as I'm aware.

Perhaps that could be implemented as far as criminal law is concerned. In codified law,the search for the truth involves the requirement of the involvement of the state prosecutor inthe investigation, something precluded in common law.

The fact that the state of Louisiana uses codified law enabled Kevin Kostner make "JFK" using historical fact as the basis for his film.

In all other aspects of law, codified law is, in my opinion , more efficient

[fluffybiscuits]

Perhaps that could be implemented as far as criminal law is concerned. In codified law,the search for the truth involves the requirement of the involvement of the state prosecutor inthe investigation, something precluded in common law.

The fact that the state of Lousiana uses codified law enabled Kevin Kostner make "JFK" using historical fact as the basis for his film.

In all other aspects of law, codified law is, in my opinion , more efficient

+1 on that one. Over here it comes down to an interpretation of the law and will come down to the whim of a judge. Some laws are so open to interpretation that a person can be prosecuted for the slightest thing technically (eg non fatal against the person act , if you splash someone with water that could be considered assault!) . Codified law would have ensured that Lyons fixed a set term in jail that is proportionate to the crime committed. What we have here now is a bloke who dodges tax on garlic (ffs?) who gets a few years and someone convicted of a sexual offence who offers a compensation and gets some years suspended? The DPP is going to appeal to the decision as the loophole here would be that future cases could come to court in similar circumstances and if someone with a couple of quid pays compensation they could very well get off with a slap on the wrist. Its an inequality in the legal system that is class based.

[Slim Buddha]

Or, put another way, common law is, in the main, bollox, and exteremly expensive, closed shop bollox at that.
In the EU, there are three different legal systems in operation, common law, codified law and Scots law.
The two systems in operation in Europe´s peripheral islands are more suited to the 18th century than 2012
and really should be phased out.

[Baron von Biffo]

Perhaps that could be implemented as far as criminal law is concerned. In codified law,the search for the truth involves the requirement of the involvement of the state prosecutor inthe investigation, something precluded in common law.

The fact that the state of Louisiana uses codified law enabled Kevin Kostner make "JFK" using historical fact as the basis for his film.

In all other aspects of law, codified law is, in my opinion , more efficient

Having dedicated prosecutors and having them involved in the police investigation of crime is something that would frighten me. A career prosecutor has a greater personal interest in a conviction than a just verdict. Giving such a person an official role in the investigation can lead to an improper relationship with the police and could lead to even greater injustice.

There's no such thing as a perfect system but we should try to anticipate problems and strive to minimise the potential for them to be realised.

In our system a barrister could be prosecuting today and defending tomorrow. If (s)he encourages a garda to pull a stroke today to secure a conviction, (s)he can ask him tomorrow if he tried to pull the same stroke against the client (s)he's defending. It doesn't get us perfection but it's less open to corruption.

I'm not familiar with the film you refer to so I don't know what precise point you're making. I do know that any suggestion that we make our system any more like they have in the US sends a chill through me.

It may be that there's an example of an affluent, white, woman being executed there but most of those who were subject to judicial slaughter were either male, poor, non-white or a combination of those characteristics.

[Slim Buddha]

Having dedicated prosecutors and having them involved in the police investigation of crime is something that would frighten me. A career prosecutor has a greater personal interest in a conviction than a just verdict. Giving such a person an official role in the investigation can lead to an improper relationship with the police and could lead to even greater injustice.

There's no such thing as a perfect system but we should try to anticipate problems and strive to minimise the potential for them to be realised.

In our system a barrister could be prosecuting today and defending tomorrow. If (s)he encourages a garda to pull a stroke today to secure a conviction, (s)he can ask him tomorrow if he tried to pull the same stroke against the client (s)he's defending. It doesn't get us perfection but it's less open to corruption.

I'm not familiar with the film you refer to so I don't know what precise point you're making. I do know that any suggestion that we make our system any more like they have in the US sends a chill through me.

It may be that there's an example of an affluent, white, woman being executed there but most of those who were subject to judicial slaughter were either male, poor, non-white or a combination of those characteristics.

In Germany, for example, the Staatsanwaltshaft is the DPPs office. There are no distinctions between solicitors and barristers. There are just lawyers. Those working for the Staatsanwaltschaft have their role defined by law. This prevents the dcorruption you referred to

The film is about the assassination of J.F: Kennedy. The actual DA in the case, Jim Garrison, was unconvinced by the Warren Commision's report on the Kennedy assassination. As he was the DA in New Orleans, he was operating under Louisiana state law, which uniquely in the USA, is based on French Napoleonic law and not common law like the other 49 states. This allowed Garrison to re-investigate the case, which is the story of the film. This would not have been possible in the common law states, including Texas, where it occurred.

I am suggesting the opposite of what you are fearing. Codified law is practiced in Europe. Common law, yes, OUR law, is fundamentally the same as that in the US.

[disability student]

That demonstrated the lack of political will to change the law as they don't care. Their (politician's) attitude let the dirt stick with the courts as they are able to put up with it.

Was aware that American embassy had warned their citizens re Gardai and the Courts itself. They were critical of the gardai for some reasons and also lack of proper extradition rules.

Saw Lyons on rte news as his body language was defiant- bully and arrogant (aggression?)

[Baron von Biffo]

In Germany, for example, the Staatsanwaltshaft is the DPPs office. There are no distinctions between solicitors and barristers. There are just lawyers. Those working for the Staatsanwaltschaft have their role defined by law. This prevents the dcorruption you referred to

How?

Having two categories of lawyer isn't any more or less corrupting than having only one and just defining a thing by law doesn't mean you wont get people breaking that law.

The film is about the assassination of J.F: Kennedy. The actual DA in the case, Jim Garrison, was unconvinced by the Warren Commision's report on the Kennedy assassination. As he was the DA in New Orleans, he was operating under Louisiana state law, which uniquely in the USA, is based on French Napoleonic law and not common law like the other 49 states. This allowed Garrison to re-investigate the case, which is the story of the film. This would not have been possible in the common law states, including Texas, where it occurred.

What's so sacred about having a lawyer rather than a police officer investigating crimes?

I am suggesting the opposite of what you are fearing. Codified law is practiced in Europe. Common law, yes, OUR law, is fundamentally the same as that in the US.

Is it not the case that all American states have dedicated criminal prosecutors and defenders?

[Baron von Biffo]

Another violent predator is set to buy his way out of a custodial sentence.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/m...en-570865.html

We really need to urgently amend the law that allows this to happen.

[Baron von Biffo]

The softly softly treatment of this lowlife continues. The Examiner has a story today about Lyons selling off his shares in his company under the headline "Aviation tycoon disposes of shares".

This gives the impression of a reputable person engaging in a business transaction when in reality it's a story no-one would have interest in were it not for Lyons notoriety as a violent criminal.

A more fitting headline might have been "Violent sexual predator disposes of shares".

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...es-212744.html