Free Pussy Riot

[Sam Lord]

The effort was democracy and it wasn't a gift.

The "western" countries are plutocracies not democracies. If you really believe otherwise you have just swallowed some propaganda fed to you by the ruling circles.

[C. Flower]

That's a very round number Sam.

Indonesia - approximately one million communists and supporters killed under CIA direction, to stop a communist government being elected in the 1960s.

Source: Barrack Obama, (in one of his autobiographies).

[riposte]

I didn't pluck it from the top of my head.



His figure is far from the highest estimate. But it has been challenged by apologists for Belgium rule in the Congo. If you would like to make a case go ahead.

I just said it was very round number...... and you paint me as an apologist for the Belgium occupation of the Congo.

Any time anyone disagrees with you or even points out sloppiness in your posts you dismiss them as "reactionaries" or "apologists" or "propagandising" or some other such clichéd term. Can you not make your point without calling people names?

[riposte]

Indonesia - approximately one million communists and supporters killed under CIA direction, to stop a communist government being elected in the 1960s.

Source: Barrack Obama, (in one of his autobiographies).

Cass ..... if you think I'm a fan of the CIA .... then I'm wasting my time here ........you must never have read any of my posts.

[Sam Lord]

I just said it was very round number...... and you paint me as an apologist for the Belgium occupation of the Congo.

Any time anyone disagrees with you or even points out sloppiness in your posts you dismiss them as "reactionaries" or "apologists" or some other such clichéd term. Can you not make your point without calling people names?

I quoted a figure from Hochschild who has produced what might be described as the definitive work on the subject. There is nothing sloppy about that.

You questioned the figure.

[riposte]

I just said it was very round number...... and you paint me as an apologist for the Belgium occupation of the Congo.

Any time anyone disagrees with you or even points out sloppiness in your posts you dismiss them as "reactionaries" or "apologists" or "propagandising" or some other such clichéd term. Can you not make your point without calling people names?

I quoted a figure from Hochschild who has produced what might be described as the definitive work on the subject. There is nothing sloppy about that.

You questioned the figure.

Yeah, but you carefully neglected to deal with the point about your brandishing other posters as "reactionaries" or "apologists" or "propagandising" as a method of debate.

[Sam Lord]

Yeah, but you carefully neglected to deal with the point about your brandishing other posters as "reactionaries" or "apologists" or "propagandising" as a method of debate.

I have never "brandished" anyone posting on this site. I would not be strong enough.

Furthermore, I never called you a "reactionary" or an "apologist" though I would accept that you are not fussy about facts when it comes to propagandising.

You stated that it was "universally accepted" that Stalin had said something when there is no evidence he did. I said that this was universally accepted by reactionaries. I was referring to a class of people and not to you personally. I did not say that it was only accepted by reactionaries. It is possibly that some person or persons accept this out of ignorance.

I gave a figure for the number of Africans estimated to have been killed by the Belgiums. You questioned it. I pointed out that my figure was based on sound scholarly work. However, I also pointed out that it had been questioned by apologists for Belgium colonialism. I did not say it had only been questioned by apologists for Belgium colonialism. You may have been questioning it for scholarly reasons (though this is unlikely given you posting history here) or for some other undetermined reason.

[C. Flower]

Cass ..... if you think I'm a fan of the CIA .... then I'm wasting my time here ........you must never have read any of my posts.

The point was made in a general way to people who may think that "the west" is universally benign, and the workers states universally murderous.

The slaughter in Indonesia was appalling and was directed by a wealthy state against a poor one (although very resource-rich), for reasons of pure self-interest.

There were dreadful events and acts carried out in the Soviet Union, many of them indefensible, but committed in a state which was wrecked by successive invasions and occupation, and which was poor and undeveloped before the revolution. In spite of this, the Soviet Union achieved a very strong rate of development.

A novel comparison of the US and USSR here, taking in peak oil as a factor.


http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23259

[Sam Lord]

There were dreadful events and acts carried out in the Soviet Union, many of them indefensible ...

Like what?

[riposte]

I have never "brandished" anyone posting on this site. I would not be strong enough.

Furthermore, I never called you a "reactionary" or an "apologist" though I would accept that you are not fussy about facts when it comes to propagandising.

You stated that it was "universally accepted" that Stalin had said something when there is no evidence he did. I said that this was universally accepted by reactionaries. I was referring to a class of people and not to you personally. I did not say that it was only accepted by reactionaries. It is possibly that some person or persons accept this out of ignorance.

I gave a figure for the number of Africans estimated to have been killed by the Belgiums. You questioned it. I pointed out that my figure was based on sound scholarly work. However, I also pointed out that it had been questioned by apologists for Belgium colonialism. I did not say it had only been questioned by apologists for Belgium colonialism. You may have been questioning it for scholarly reasons (though this is unlikely given you posting history here) or for some other undetermined reason.

That's a nice reasonable and rational post Sam and almost completely true ..... all credit to you. I can marshal scholarly arguments in some areas where I have a little knowledge but I wouldn't claim omniscience.

In this instance it is extremely unlikely that exactly 10 million were slaughered by the Belgians ( it might have been more) ....... that's why I said it was very round number.

Spread the wealth? Where?

Here is a documentary you should watch on how the Congo was turned into a vast slave labour camp to produce rubber and 10 million Africans there butchered.

Human hands were used as currency




White King, Red Rubber, Black Death - YouTube


This is the legacy of the "west" ... not spreading wealth around. The amount of wealth plundered from Asia, Africa and Latin America was astonishing. It is the basis of the prosperity of "the west".

[Count Bobulescu]

A novel comparison of the US and USSR here, taking in peak oil as a factor.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23259

Very novel indeed!

[riposte]

A novel comparison of the US and USSR here, taking in peak oil as a factor.


http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23259

A few lessons for the EU ........and Ireland in there too Cass.

[Andrew49]

Russian President Vladimir Putin said Thursday he did not favour a tough punishment in the trial of an all-girl punk band which performed a song against his rule in Moscow's biggest church.

"There is nothing good in what they did, nevertheless, I do not think that they should be judged too severely for this."

Source

Wha? Use the case as an warning example to others!

[fluffybiscuits]

Its irking to see a man who has ruled a country that is repsonsible for human rights abuses to get some support on this site. Is this because such a man such as Putin is the antithesis to the ruling class? Hate to tell people but this man is very much a part of it. The latest being the propganda to reinforce a macho image by going to see the Judo in the Olympics and then congratulating the winner,.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/0...8J2PPA20120802

It was Russian President Putin who staged one of the day's most emphatic victory celebrations, leaping to his feet with both fists aloft when his countryman Tagir Khaibulaev defeated a Mongolian opponent to win Russia's third judo gold.

Putin, who cultivates a macho image based partly on his skills on the mat, slapped the victor repeatedly on the back and grabbed his cheeks with both hands.

In buoyant mood, he went on to suggest to Russian news agency Interfax that members of female punk band Pussy Riot, on trial for protesting against him in a Moscow cathedral, should not be judged too harshly.

Pussy Riot are there to undermine the establishment and fight for free speech, Putin is akin to Bush in a lot of ways but both are just two different faces on the same body that is imperialism. Pussy Riot were named prisoners of conscience by Amnesty International recently, being jailed for their political beliefs. Quite irritating to see some people fall over themselves on here to praise Putin, did not think a lot on here would swallow propoganda.

[C. Flower]

Radio Free Europe weighs in behind Pussy Riot, who they say are modelled on a US performance tendency "

http://www.rferl.org/content/pussy-r.../24660925.html

Pussy Riot and "riot grrl" seem to have followed on the track of the women's art group "Gorilla Girls" who exhibited in Ireland a couple of years ago.

Pussy Riot is more a performance art collective than a punk rock band in the classical sense. They emerged out of the underground anarchist art collective Voina -- itself notorious for its outrageous public stunts, most notably painting a giant phallus on a drawbridge in St. Petersburg facing the local FSB headquarters.

The idea for Pussy Riot emerged in the spring of 2011, according to media reports, when female members of Voina began studying the work of the U.S. "riot grrrl" feminist punk movement.

In the autumn of 2011, the group began staging public actions and posting them on YouTube. And just like Voina, "membership'" in the Pussy Riot collective is anonymous and rotating. In interviews, they gives names like "Squirrel" and "Sparrow."

"Membership in Pussy Riot is completely interchangeable," Petr Verzilov, a leading member of Voina and husband of jailed Pussy Riot member Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, told RFE/RL's Russian Service in a recent interview. "This anonymous status is part of the group's ideological core. A few dozen girls have participated in their five performances."

"Artistic freedom" was a focus of US propoganda strategies in the USSR and Eastern Europe and now against the too-nationalistic and independent Putin.

The US won't be happy until they have a puppet installed.

Via the link - two videos show that their performance in the church was a mime - no sound.