How held back is Ireland due to the Catholic Church?

[toxic avenger]

Most people forget they dont need the church to worship god. Cut out the middle man and keep your faith and everyone is happy...

That's Protestantism - every man his own Pope, as it were. I'm not a Protestant.

[fluffybiscuits]

That's Protestantism - every man his own Pope, as it were. I'm not a Protestant.

They still go to church however!

[bernadette]

I think the particular version of Catholicism that grew up in this country after Emancipation, under the guidance of some very peculiar psychopaths, had a malign influence (we all know how - the terrorization and rape of children by a number of clerics in particular), but it wasn't all malign either - a lot of youngsters got a good education from them where no-one else was there to do so - a lot of families got food and support from them when there was no welfare state to prevent them going hungry. And Catholicism made this country the centre of Western European civilisation in the early-to-mid medieval period, opening the country up to classical European culture and philosophy, learning and literacy.

The trendy and lazy narrative now dominant is one of an evil and manipulative organisation engaged in a conspiracy to keep a credulous peasant population in their place (whether for money, power, or the kicks), as if they were a different population entirely and weren't the sons, daughters, brothers, and sisters of everyone else, as if they were all part of a 2000 year conspiracy and all kept quiet about it, as if the population were incapable of thinking for themselves and were just stupid dupes.

I just think It'd be nice to see a bit of balance amidst all the history rewriting and received wisdom repetition...

No, can't agree with that. Thousands of children did not get a good education. Hundreds probably thousands of children were sexually and or physically abused bu many priests. Girls were given to slavery. Young mothers were tortured in childbirth and left maimed for life. All of it was perpetrated by the RCC and all of it has been covered up by the RCC.

What is really sad is people are still suffering partly because the RCC is not alone in its denial. The power of the RCC must be taken from them Ireland must be secular for the sake of the children.

[Monetpenny]

The Referendum that adopted the Irish Constitution was the dodgiest election ever conducted in this state.

First of all it was the election with the greatest number of spoiled votes in the history of the state. Almost 10% of the votes cast were spoiled. The highest level of spoiled votes was in 2 constituencies that were expected to vote against the Constitution. It is believed that the powers that be wanted the pro-catholic constitution passed & in the count deemed many good no votes as being 'spoilt'.

Further, many Protestants did not vote in the referendum as a form of protest against the pro-catholic constitution. Obviously they did not realise that there was also a significant Catholic minority that voted against the constitution. In fact only about 33% of the electorate actually supported the adoption of the constitution.

The constitution referendum was a stroke by the then immensely unpopular de Valera (who had been excommunicated by the RCC) to get re-elected in the general election & to get back in favour with the church (which had twice declined his application for the priesthood). Whilst de Valera (btw I believe his father was English) was unquestionably the greatest blight this country ever endured he was an accomplished politician.

If the anti-campaign had been more organised & had been able to monitor the vote properly it could very well have been defeated.

The RCC held this country back by its teaching.
As Catholics we were thought unquestioning obedience to our leaders, they were after all God appointed.
If you were poor you were told to accept it as the brief torment you experienced on earth would be more than compensated by an eternity of honey rivers & sweet cakes in heaven.
Essentially we were told to just accept things as they are.
The RCC which is essentially a for profit political organisation & the Irish political class are convenient bed fellows with the common raison d'être of keeping the Irish people suppressed & making profit off their work.

[bernadette]

The Referendum that adopted the Irish Constitution was the dodgiest election ever conducted in this state.

First of all it was the election with the greatest number of spoiled votes in the history of the state. Almost 10% of the votes cast were spoiled. The highest level of spoiled votes was in 2 constituencies that were expected to vote against the Constitution. It is believed that the powers that be wanted the pro-catholic constitution passed & in the count deemed many good no votes as being 'spoilt'.

Further, many Protestants did not vote in the referendum as a form of protest against the pro-catholic constitution. Obviously they did not realise that there was also a significant Catholic minority that voted against the constitution. In fact only about 33% of the electorate actually supported the adoption of the constitution.

The constitution referendum was a stroke by the then immensely unpopular de Valera (who had been excommunicated by the RCC) to get re-elected in the general election & to get back in favour with the church (which had twice declined his application for the priesthood). Whilst de Valera (btw I believe his father was English) was unquestionably the greatest blight this country ever endured he was an accomplished politician.

If the anti-campaign had been more organised & had been able to monitor the vote properly it could very well have been defeated.

The RCC held this country back by its teaching.
As Catholics we were thought unquestioning obedience to our leaders, they were after all God appointed.
If you were poor you were told to accept it as the brief torment you experienced on earth would be more than compensated by an eternity of honey rivers & sweet cakes in heaven.
Essentially we were told to just accept things as they are.
The RCC which is essentially a for profit political organisation & the Irish political class are convenient bed fellows with the common raison d'être of keeping the Irish people suppressed & making profit off their work.

I agree with most of your post but one item has me puzzled. Why do you believe Devs father was English?? Is there any evidence, apart from his convenient dislike of the English?

[Monetpenny]

It takes a bit of a leap but here goes.

Catherine Coll was De Valera's mother.
When de Valera was born, his father's name was recorded as Vivion de Valero.
De Valera's birth was originally registered as George de Valero in October 1882.
This was later corrected in 1910 to Edward de Valera. Edward (or George) changed it himself to Eamon to sound more Irish.

There is absolutely no record of a Vivion de Valero or de Valera ever living or dying as Catherine Coll claimed in New York or Denver, Colorado.
So even if the end of the name 'ero' or 'era' is questionable at least the 'de Val' portion is consistent.
But the name must have come from somewhere, right?


In 1888 Catherine Coll married Charles Wheelwright an Englishman.
Now here is the amazing coincidence.
In a 1881 British census Charles Wheelwright was listed as living with a man called Edward de Vall or Devall.
It is too much of a coincidence for my liking.
Now I admit I am entering the realm of speculation at this point.

It doesn't make sense that after marrying Wheelwright in 1888 that Catherine Coll would not take George/Edward/Eamon back to the US with her.
Wheelwright converted to Catholicism at her behest which indicates that she had some influence over her husband.
So why was George/Edward/Eamon left to a miserable existence in Bruree where the local schoolchildren tormented him over his illegitimacy & called him the devil child whilst the Wheelwright's lived a reasonably comfortable lifestyle in the US?

I think it is because Catherine Wheelwright (nee Coll) did not want her American neighbours/community to see Eamon with his supposed half siblings as they may look too similar & George/Edward/Eamon may bear an uncanny resemblance to the man, Charles Wheelwright, that was supposed to be his step-father.
Then her concoction of a son born in wedlock to a Spanish/Cuban artist would be destroyed.
George/Edward/Eamon also had ambitions to be a priest. There was obviously something in the family as of his 2 (half) siblings 1 of them became a priest & I think the other became a nun.

I know it is a leap. But we know that someone must have fathered de Valera & unless he was one of those famed immaculate conceptions it had to be a man that did it.
No 'de Valero' or 'de Valera' exists to fit the bill & I reckon a man named Wheelwright who had previously lived with a man named Edward De Vall or Devall may be the answer.

[bernadette]

It takes a bit of a leap but here goes.

Catherine Coll was De Valera's mother.
When de Valera was born, his father's name was recorded as Vivion de Valero.
De Valera's birth was originally registered as George de Valero in October 1882.
This was later corrected in 1910 to Edward de Valera. Edward (or George) changed it himself to Eamon to sound more Irish.

There is absolutely no record of a Vivion de Valero or de Valera ever living or dying as Catherine Coll claimed in New York or Denver, Colorado.
So even if the end of the name 'ero' or 'era' is questionable at least the 'de Val' portion is consistent.
But the name must have come from somewhere, right?


In 1888 Catherine Coll married Charles Wheelwright an Englishman.
Now here is the amazing coincidence.
In a 1881 British census Charles Wheelwright was listed as living with a man called Edward de Vall or Devall.
It is too much of a coincidence for my liking.
Now I admit I am entering the realm of speculation at this point.

It doesn't make sense that after marrying Wheelwright in 1888 that Catherine Coll would not take George/Edward/Eamon back to the US with her.
Wheelwright converted to Catholicism at her behest which indicates that she had some influence over her husband.
So why was George/Edward/Eamon left to a miserable existence in Bruree where the local schoolchildren tormented him over his illegitimacy & called him the devil child whilst the Wheelwright's lived a reasonably comfortable lifestyle in the US?

I think it is because Catherine Wheelwright (nee Coll) did not want her American neighbours/community to see Eamon with his supposed half siblings as they may look too similar & George/Edward/Eamon may bear an uncanny resemblance to the man, Charles Wheelwright, that was supposed to be his step-father.
Then her concoction of a son born in wedlock to a Spanish/Cuban artist would be destroyed.
George/Edward/Eamon also had ambitions to be a priest. There was obviously something in the family as of his 2 (half) siblings 1 of them became a priest & I think the other became a nun.

I know it is a leap. But we know that someone must have fathered de Valera & unless he was one of those famed immaculate conceptions it had to be a man that did it.
No 'de Valero' or 'de Valera' exists to fit the bill & I reckon a man named Wheelwright who had previously lived with a man named Edward De Vall or Devall may be the answer.

It is a stretch because surely it would have been relatively easy to 'alter' the date of the marriage to before Dev was born. If the craeture had a miserable childhood he made everyone pay for it.

His mother would have been young, she may have made a mistake but her family were good people they didn't, as so many did, banish her and they took her child in as a member of the family. He got called names as a child, that happens to all children and many of his neighbours would have been much worse off than him. I've no sympathy with Dev at all. I think his hatred of the English was parr for the course as far as he was concerned.

[Monetpenny]

I'm not saying definitively that Wheelwright was his father-it's just very suspicious & none of it adds up.
She gives birth to George in Oct 1882, which is more an English name than an Irish or Spanish name.
George is sent home to Ireland.
She marries Wheelwright 6 years later.
Wheelwright becomes a Catholic.
She has 2 children with Wheelwright & all the time George is exiled in Bruree.
George pleads with her on her visits to take him with her to the US & she refuses until he issues her with an ultimatum, either take me to the US when you return or give me enough money so I can finish my education. She gives him the money.

I just can't fathom why she wouldn't take him to the US.

I don't think that US records could be altered like that.
The reason we know that no Vivion de Valero (or de Valera) had any part in this matter is there is no record of him in either New York or Denver, Colorado where she claims he died.

But then when it comes to de Valera very little makes sense:
Why wasn't he executed when other US citizens were shot after the 1916 Rising & other rebel leaders were executed after his sentence was commuted?
(If you serve as an officer in a foreign army you automatically lose your US citizenship so it wasn't because he was an American & during WW2 the British executed 18 US servicemen in Shepton Mallet Gaol in Somerset. Yet Irish people still believe he wasn't executed because he was an American, which he wasn't by US law, & even if he was, they wouldn't have cared.)
Why was he allowed campaign & make speeches in his Irish volunteer uniform during the 1918 general election when it was an offence to wear it in public?
Why when he was warned by Michael Collins that he would be arrested did he have documents showing a system of Sinn Fein communication and organisation of the Irish Army on his person when he was arrested?
(https://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/4-july...de-valera.html)
The account of his 'escape' from Lincoln prison is so ridiculous that no-one can believe it.
Why did he keep the vast majority of the money raised in the US for the cause of Irish freedom for himself?
Why did he insist that Michael Collins desist from his guerrilla war/ambush tactics & engage in large scale pitched battles once a month? (Rather wisely Collins ignored him on this matter)

There is a lot that doesn't make sense about the de Valera story.

[bernadette]

I'm not saying definitively that Wheelwright was his father-it's just very suspicious & none of it adds up.
She gives birth to George in Oct 1882, which is more an English name than an Irish or Spanish name.
George is sent home to Ireland.
She marries Wheelwright 6 years later.
Wheelwright becomes a Catholic.
She has 2 children with Wheelwright & all the time George is exiled in Bruree.
George pleads with her on her visits to take him with her to the US & she refuses until he issues her with an ultimatum, either take me to the US when you return or give me enough money so I can finish my education. She gives him the money.

I just can't fathom why she wouldn't take him to the US.

I don't think that US records could be altered like that.
The reason we know that no Vivion de Valero (or de Valera) had any part in this matter is there is no record of him in either New York or Denver, Colorado where she claims he died.

But then when it comes to de Valera very little makes sense:
Why wasn't he executed when other US citizens were shot after the 1916 Rising & other rebel leaders were executed after his sentence was commuted?
(If you serve as an officer in a foreign army you automatically lose your US citizenship so it wasn't because he was an American & during WW2 the British executed 18 US servicemen in Shepton Mallet Gaol in Somerset. Yet Irish people still believe he wasn't executed because he was an American, which he wasn't by US law, & even if he was, they wouldn't have cared.)
Why was he allowed campaign & make speeches in his Irish volunteer uniform during the 1918 general election when it was an offence to wear it in public?
Why when he was warned by Michael Collins that he would be arrested did he have documents showing a system of Sinn Fein communication and organisation of the Irish Army on his person when he was arrested?
(https://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/4-july...de-valera.html)
The account of his 'escape' from Lincoln prison is so ridiculous that no-one can believe it.
Why did he keep the vast majority of the money raised in the US for the cause of Irish freedom for himself?
Why did he insist that Michael Collins desist from his guerrilla war/ambush tactics & engage in large scale pitched battles once a month? (Rather wisely Collins ignored him on this matter)

There is a lot that doesn't make sense about the de Valera story.

Oh yes much about Devs past is very puzzling but the ability to fudge dates etc was much easier back then. If his mother/parents had wanted they could have arranged for him to be part of their family. It seems if what you say is true that they didn't want him. Perhaps they knew he was safe and well but buying a child off is strange.

As for what he did as an adult I think he was just another gombeen parasite with a bigger chip on his shoulder than most.

[C. Flower]

I think the particular version of Catholicism that grew up in this country after Emancipation, under the guidance of some very peculiar psychopaths, had a malign influence (we all know how - the terrorization and rape of children by a number of clerics in particular), but it wasn't all malign either - a lot of youngsters got a good education from them where no-one else was there to do so - a lot of families got food and support from them when there was no welfare state to prevent them going hungry. And Catholicism made this country the centre of Western European civilisation in the early-to-mid medieval period, opening the country up to classical European culture and philosophy, learning and literacy.

The trendy and lazy narrative now dominant is one of an evil and manipulative organisation engaged in a conspiracy to keep a credulous peasant population in their place (whether for money, power, or the kicks), as if they were a different population entirely and weren't the sons, daughters, brothers, and sisters of everyone else, as if they were all part of a 2000 year conspiracy and all kept quiet about it, as if the population were incapable of thinking for themselves and were just stupid dupes.

I just think It'd be nice to see a bit of balance amidst all the history rewriting and received wisdom repetition...

Statement needs to be balanced with recognition that the Church vehemently opposed the politics of the welfare state and entrenched itself as service-provider.

[Trow]

Just thinking Rhetorically, How ''held back'' are multitudes by any Religion?''

[bernadette]

Just thinking Rhetorically, How ''held back'' are multitudes by any Religion?''

Seriously? Only look at how Ireland has been controlled by religion for the best part of the last century. It was unquestioning, unthinking obedience. We're only just beginning to recover.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Agree with bernadette and, incidentally, enjoying very much Monetpenny's informative posts. Religion doesn't 'hold back' a people unless it attempts to change their psychology. Catholicism certainly did that in Ireland and I would agree with bernadette that it is only in recent times that Irish society is shaking its head and trying to clear its mind of the pervasive Roman poppy.

Ireland had two cultural invasions of note (three if you include the Norse) but by far of the three the greatest psychological damage was done by the Roman Empire as it morphed from a physical into a metaphysical tyrant.

The damage done was extraordinary- the near destruction of our own culture. Luckily it was too strong and survived where it always does when threatened- the 'otherworld', that landscape of symbols and deep in our oral history where the pages can't be burnt.

Ireland is a case history, unfortunately, on how pervasive a foreign culture can be in its attempt to destroy an original culture.

[Trow]

Just thinking Rhetorically, How ''held back'' are multitudes by any Religion?''

Seriously? Only look at how Ireland has been controlled by religion for the best part of the last century. It was unquestioning, unthinking obedience. We're only just beginning to recover.

I personally ''questioned'' ''thought'' and was ''disobedient.'' So i've nothing to recover from.

Not only has Ireland as a whole been controlled by Religion, it has been divided by it also. [Home Rule is Rome Rule] and all that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Covenant [incidentally, i held that document until recently] Another powerful talisman.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

And there you have it- that is why I kick any buttock of that mediterranean ersatz nonsense anytime I see it brought into Irish social affairs or politics.

Some find it tedious. But I'm going to keep kicking that buttock until it disappears. As long as there are people who think the tentacles of that social vampire squid and its moneysucking bloodfunnels are 'Irish' then my work is not yet done